what Obama has in store for service members wounded in battle

Trolling for candy.

I started to write a reply, then I started to write insults, then I just realized trying to debate anything with you is like calling a conservative radio/tv show to talk about relevant facts. Utterly pointless, since you distill everything to convenient sound-bites and avoid or ignore everything else.

:rolleyes:
 
Nailz - Dead Winter attempted reasoning with Ascen-er, excuse me, I mean Up&Away, and that got him nowhere. What on earth possessed you to try? Masochism? ;)

Sometimes, I need to feel superior to someone and win a debate on the internet. I don't know why, but reducing idiots to bumbling piles of stupid makes me happy when it's not causing the rage to boil in my skull. I just kinda forgot he was a giant internet troll for a few minutes. :goggly:

Ascension. Up&Away. Taking this long to make the stupid username connection makes me feel like HUR HUR DERP. I guess I just never gave the guy much thought.
 
The average American needs to learn to live within their means. That's the problem people in this country have. I do, so I have no sympathy in that regard. Again, there are programs for people that need it. Plus, people can get taken care of if they need it. Hospitals won't turn them away.

+1

As for that BCBS quote for the 10k deductible...it will pay for the broken arm, it includes emergency room visits with a $150 co-pay. Said broken arm will get fixed, follow-up treatment is a different story (that happens to be the policy I've had for the last 4 years).
 
+1

As for that BCBS quote for the 10k deductible...it will pay for the broken arm, it includes emergency room visits with a $150 co-pay. Said broken arm will get fixed, follow-up treatment is a different story (that happens to be the policy I've had for the last 4 years).


There's some reasoning for you liberals. ;)
 
Sent to me by a nurse friend...

1. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the “privilege.” (Section 1501)

2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711).

4. Think you’d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn’t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that’s what the customer wants. (Section 2712).

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn’t allow your employers’ slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714).

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.
You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re not a druggy nor drink alcohol? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a “Bronze plan,” which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d)(1)(A))

8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you’d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A).

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money such as better ergonomics and safety for your employees? Tough. (Section 1513).

10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can’t do that. (Section 9005 (i)).

11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a “Medicare provider agreement” by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn’t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A)).

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a county where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)).

14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed “unreasonable” by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003)

15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the ************** industry. If you are a ************** company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a ************** executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).


16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)).
The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405).

17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).)

18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014).

19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015).
That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402).

20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).
 
+1

As for that BCBS quote for the 10k deductible...it will pay for the broken arm, it includes emergency room visits with a $150 co-pay. Said broken arm will get fixed, follow-up treatment is a different story (that happens to be the policy I've had for the last 4 years).

The live with your means thing is a little ridiculous since this country has been built, advertised, and preached on materialism..
 
A lot has changed. The business owner is now FORCED to provide insurance or SUFFER the penalties. That wasn't happening before Obamacare. To some business owners that will be enough.
Good. The smart business people will find ways to adjust. The others can go out of business. Survival of the fittest.


The average American needs to learn to live within their means. That's the problem people in this country have. I do, so I have no sympathy in that regard. Again, there are programs for people that need it. Plus, people can get taken care of if they need it. Hospitals won't turn them away.
I agree whole heartedly with the first part of this statement. The American sense of entitlement has grown proportionately with advances in technology. It amuses the hell out of me how incredulous some people can be when they find out I don't have a high def TV. "Why not?" "I don't have the money." "But you're missing out on so much.". "So?"

The second part of this statement angers me. Have you ever been to a hospital where a good portion of the population are using it for their "free" health care? I live in an area where many people do. I sat on the floor in the ER because there were no seats with my son who had a severely broken elbow holding him while he moaned and vomited and we had to wait for all the people that needed their kids' earaches and sniffles checked out. Oh, and since I had a health care plan, I was essentially paying for those people.

While I don't like many things in this health care plan, I think some of the things detractors are complaining about are bullshit. I just hope through all the arguing it gets tweaked to the point of being functional and helpful. I agree we have a ways to go.
 
The live with your means thing is a little ridiculous since this country has been built, advertised, and preached on materialism..

How is it a little ridiculous? I know quite a few folks who live on a limited income and manage to save for the things they want and avoid going into massive credit card debt to get it. I drive through the richest area in Atlanta to get to work, I have home clients I see, whose house garners a property tax = to my taxable income. And they're concerned they're going to have to sell the place, because business is so slow they're not bringing in the multi-millions they normally do. If they're getting the hint, how does it become ridiculous? Particularly with the parts of the economy that were shot to hell in the latest bubble burst.....housing, credit/banks. From the mortgage loan bullshit I'm going through right now, people are going to be forced to live within their means, whether they like it or not.
 
The second part of this statement angers me. Have you ever been to a hospital where a good portion of the population are using it for their "free" health care? I live in an area where many people do. I sat on the floor in the ER because there were no seats with my son who had a severely broken elbow holding him while he moaned and vomited and we had to wait for all the people that needed their kids' earaches and sniffles checked out. Oh, and since I had a health care plan, I was essentially paying for those people.

You gotta be kidding me?? Please tell me this was just the result of the clinic and the ER being backed up (the one get taken to has a separate clinic, so the serious injuries can be taken care of and the lesser issues can, too).

But that is my complaint, people going in for EVERY little thing. I like the idea of the 'minute clinics' and the non-emergency clinics, wish money would get funneled there, so they can provide for people without insurance, without raising rates through the roof for everyone else.
 
Good. The smart business people will find ways to adjust. The others can go out of business. Survival of the fittest.

Oh they will survive alright. They look at the bottom line. Dropping insurance coverage and paying the fines will be cheaper for them. Some will also stop hiring (even moreso than now) and cut wages due to the caps and limitations they will face according to this bill. They will do what they have to do.


The second part of this statement angers me. Have you ever been to a hospital where a good portion of the population are using it for their "free" health care? I live in an area where many people do. I sat on the floor in the ER because there were no seats with my son who had a severely broken elbow holding him while he moaned and vomited and we had to wait for all the people that needed their kids' earaches and sniffles checked out. Oh, and since I had a health care plan, I was essentially paying for those people.

Absolutely. I hear the horror stories all the time from my healthcare industry buds. But sadly, it's only going to get worse. Obama just gave 32+ million a "Free Healthcare" card. Going to the ER for the entitlement crowd is like a freakin' social event, all their friends and family are there. One ER doctor friend in Atlanta told me of a lady of minority persuasion that called 911 to get an ambulance. Once she got to the hospital, she got off the ambulance saying she just needed a ride to the other side of town. The entitlement bunch abuse everything.

BTW-You were paying for it because you pay taxes. The hospitals turn it in on Medicaid. But guess what, you'll get to pay more now. woohoo!
 
But...l'm betting you have a car payment, cell phone bill, cable/internet bill, etc. that you don't mind paying for. Are you putting these things above your health? Just how much is your health worth to you?

I have one car payment, and that's because the Jeep I drove for over 16 years (and was paid off for 11) finally died. I can't walk to work.

I finally bought a cell phone a year and a half ago. I put it off as long as I could. I wish I didn't have to pay for it, but the wife has deemed it necessary.

Yes, I have cable/internet. I think high speed internet is necessary in this day in age. I have basic cable - no digital or Tivo or extra channels.

I also have medical bills that continually roll in. In fact, my son has an appointment today that will lead to being billed by 2 different doctors, probably a lab test, and maybe the hospital itself. Probably $200 for today.
 
The second part of this statement angers me. Have you ever been to a hospital where a good portion of the population are using it for their "free" health care? I live in an area where many people do. I sat on the floor in the ER because there were no seats with my son who had a severely broken elbow holding him while he moaned and vomited and we had to wait for all the people that needed their kids' earaches and sniffles checked out. Oh, and since I had a health care plan, I was essentially paying for those people..

Technically you'll still be paying for them, but with any luck, they'll have Primary Care Doctors and clear out of the ER for real emergencies so that doesn't happen again (that really sucks btw). Thus lowering the cost of health care OH MY GOD IT WORKS. :)