When does life begin?

[CiG]

Just think the rape exception is one of the weirder talking points regarding abortion. I think abortion is fine if done before outside-of-the-womb viability stages, don't see why the context in which the seed got there is really relevant. Are you saying you'd be fine with a late term abortion being done if the baby is there because the mother was raped? If not, who cares.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Just think the rape exception is one of the weirder talking points regarding abortion. I think abortion is fine if done before outside-of-the-womb viability stages, don't see why the context in which the seed got there is really relevant. Are you saying you'd be fine with a late term abortion being done if the baby is there because the mother was raped? If not, who cares.

Look, I already told you I oppose abortion and am pro-life. I am totally against late term abortions completely with no exceptions. I merely believe that in something like a rape case a woman should have the right to chose an abortion. Not all rape victims will get an abortion but some will. And I think a woman has the right in that one exceptional case to chose a abortion. Forcing a woman who was raped to keep the baby is another crime added to the one committed against her. Most people agree that in rape cases an abortion is acceptable since an abortion is a good way of taking the satisfaction away from the rapist who wants her to keep the baby. But once aborted, the rapist is no longer satisfied with his rape. But this is why rape victims should reserve the right to chose in this one exceptional case. Most people do agree that rape is a unique situation in which abortion can give a woman back her freedom that was taken away from her. Many would find it insulting, an insult to injury scenario, to force a rape victim to keep the baby. But rape victims must come forward soon and not abort the baby too late. An abortion in such a case should be done immediately.

Other than rape case, I am against abortion in all other cases. I think people need to be sensitive to rape victims and allow them to think and chose for themselves.

 

[CiG]

Kill the fetus to get back at the rapist, makes perfect sense.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Kill the fetus to get back at the rapist, makes perfect sense.

For some people it does. Keeping the baby empowers the rapist with total victory over the woman. I strongly believe that in rape cases a woman should be free to chose. This may be morally argued as you feel strongly about and that's fine. But from a legal standpoint we can't or shouldn't force a rape victim to keep the baby. But a abortion done rather quickly would be appropriate rather than waiting a few months.

 

[CiG]

Well for me the biggest hole in that bizarre idea is that it often takes well over a year to even prove a rape occurred through the courts, so honestly it's completely moot because of that. Woman gets raped, couple months later she's certain she's pregnant, a month or so later she's tested to find out if the baby is the rapist's and not some other man she slept with consensually, now she has to file the police report and initiate an investigation to determine whether it was rape and after all this, you think there'll be enough time left to abort the rapist's baby before it's a late term abortion?

Piffle.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Kill the fetus to get back at the rapist, makes perfect sense.

Why should the rapist be rewarded with a baby of his own after what he did? You and I agree on the abortion issue for the most part. But I just don't see why women should be held down after they have been forced down and raped. If the woman wants to free herself of the fetus then by law that should be her civil right in this one exceptional case. There is no need to polarize an entire nation over this issue. Most people agree abortion is barbaric and wrong on so many levels. But we need to approach this discussion with a sensitive heart for the rape victim and apply our powers of reason to form a peaceful conclusion that we can get others to accept. Not many people are gonna be comfortable forcing rape victims to keep their babies. Just saying,

 

[CiG]

He won't be rewarded with the baby, he'll be in prison and hopefully executed.

Address my point:

Well for me the biggest hole in that bizarre idea is that it often takes well over a year to even prove a rape occurred through the courts, so honestly it's completely moot because of that. Woman gets raped, couple months later she's certain she's pregnant, a month or so later she's tested to find out if the baby is the rapist's and not some other man she slept with consensually, now she has to file the police report and initiate an investigation to determine whether it was rape and after all this, you think there'll be enough time left to abort the rapist's baby before it's a late term abortion?

How can this be achieved when you only have 9 months to prove that a rape has even occurred?

 

[CiG]

Is this some kind of far-left #BelieveTheVictim bullshit?

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

that in cases like rape an abortion should be a woman's choice.

i didn't say "Woman's choice"
i said
when pregnant woman claims pregnancy is result of rape, abortion needs to be a requirement for rape conviction
it would slow down the number of bullshit rape convictions, psychotic single moms and baby-crazy-women poking holes in condoms

 

[FEZZILLA]

i didn't say "Woman's choice"
i said
when pregnant woman claims pregnancy is result of rape, abortion needs to be a requirement for rape conviction
it would slow down the number of bullshit rape convictions, psychotic single moms and baby-crazy-women poking holes in condoms

Simple solution is already the most strongly suggested thing for rape victims to do. When a woman is raped she is strongly encouraged to go straight to the hospital right after she has been raped and not to delay this. Women who do this tend to be the ones who catch their rapists among other benefits of reporting the rape to the police and visiting the hospital as soon as possible. The medical examiners will be able to determine whether she has been raped or not.

There are some women out there who are malicious women and make allegations towards men that are not true. This is one of the reasons why women who have been raped should go to the hospital and report the rape to the police as soon as possible. Women who do not report the rape or see a physician often find themselves facing a much tougher court trial when the rapist is brought to justice.

 

[CiG]

You can't prove a rape has happened by simply examining the physical condition of the woman claiming it was a rape. Rough sex is a thing. There are so many holes in your position on this.

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

There are some women out there who are malicious women and make allegations towards men that are not true.

this^^^ frequently involves pregnant women making up rape to try to be single moms
my solution to this was simple
if a woman says "the baby in me is the product of rape" then an abortion should be required in order to get a rape conviction

 

[Zonfar]

Everything is alive, all your cells have life, your eyeballs which are currently reading this have their own life which is both separate and the same as you. I am pro choice, but think such choices should be considered carefully. For example, using abortion as a form of birth control is gross to me, however if an accident happens and you aren't capable of caring for a child, or are in an unstable situation, why bring life into this world to suffer? We have plenty of that to go around already, many children out there starve and do not have places to live.

We need to re-evaluate how we teach people how this whole babies and sex thing work. That is much more important to me than talking about pro-life or pro-choice, we need to go to the source of the problem, that way there is less of a chance of needing to talk about pro life or pro choice.

We already know trying to avoid talking about sex or preventative sex DOESN'T WORK which is why we have to have these types of conversations in the first place! Sex education needs to be taught earlier on, more birth controls should be made readily available earlier on. Hiding these options from kids is only going to do one thing, cause unwanted pregnancies and completely change the course of that individual's life when they may not be ready for it yet.

We can be disgusted at the thought of younger people being on birth control because we feel it might be encouraging them to have sex at a younger age. OR we can realize, there's a good chance they are already gonna do it. Why don't we give more options for birth control to give more of a chance at less unwanted pregnancies?

Seem's obvious to me, and I know we are heading in the right direction. It just feels so slow sometimes because people wanted to hold back progress because they fear what they aren't used to.

 

[CiG]

For example, using abortion as a form of birth control is gross to me

however if an accident happens and you aren't capable of caring for a child, or are in an unstable situation, why bring life into this world to suffer?

Isn't this just basically using abortion as birth control? If you "accidentally get pregnant" and have an abortion, you are engaging in birth control actions.

...why bring life into this world to suffer? We have plenty of that to go around already, many children out there starve and do not have places to live.

This is in many cases, if we're talking about the west, a pretty bad argument in favour of abortion. Very few people live in conditions so bad that a baby in their care would suffer. Also nobody suggests we kill already born kids so we can help them avoid suffering and starvation, not sure why a womb suddenly changes the concept.

Unless you're strictly talking about abortions that happen very early before the fetus is viable outside of the womb?

We already know trying to avoid talking about sex or preventative sex DOESN'T WORK which is why we have to have these types of conversations in the first place! Sex education needs to be taught earlier on, more birth controls should be made readily available earlier on. Hiding these options from kids is only going to do one thing, cause unwanted pregnancies and completely change the course of that individual's life when they may not be ready for it yet.

What kind of data do you know/have to support your claim that sex ed needs to be taught earlier? Seems to me that as we've become more sexually liberated as a society and the earlier and earlier we teach sex ed to kids, the worse the use of abortions and rates of teen pregnancies get, not the other way around as you seem to imply.

Seem's obvious to me, and I know we are heading in the right direction. It just feels so slow sometimes because people wanted to hold back progress because they fear what they aren't used to.

I don't think we're heading in the right direction if the right direction is less abortions and less teen pregnancy.

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

i think Zonfar was trying to say that we need to develop some sort of way to prevent those specific pregnancies that are going to end up being abortions anyways, which i agree with

when i was in high-school, i was hanging out with these "totally hetero" girls who were actually bragging about the huge number of dicks they'd touched, while at the same freaking time telling people they were saving penis-in-vagina-sex for their wedding night

i seriously think blowjobs/eating pussy/hetero anal etc etc should be taught as a way of "having sex" without actually doing "the act that produces babies"

btw, iirc, american teenagers getting STDs went up at the exact same time teenage pregnancy went down

 

[Zonfar]

Isn't this just basically using abortion as birth control? If you "accidentally get pregnant" and have an abortion, you are engaging in birth control actions.

Definitely, but there is a different mindset between consciously NOT using birth control before the fact, and if you did use birth control and it didn't work, or were raped/etc.. As opposed to not attempting to use birth control, get pregnant, get an abortion, and repeat the same thing constantly.

This is in many cases, if we're talking about the west, a pretty bad argument in favour of abortion. Very few people live in conditions so bad that a baby in their care would suffer. Also nobody suggests we kill already born kids so we can help them avoid suffering and starvation, not sure why a womb suddenly changes the concept.

Unless you're strictly talking about abortions that happen very early before the fetus is viable outside of the womb?

I never mentioned specifically the west, I'm speaking world wide. Just because things are nicer over here, doesn't mean we should ignore the problems that ARE happening in other parts of the world, and yes I believe that in some cases we should have the option to abort before a certain time period, too late in the pregnancy seems gross to me, as the more conscious and aware the life becomes. Again, I believe ALL things are alive, such as the cells in our body, or the sperm before it even interacts with an egg, however we don't tend to fight the these forms of life as much as a fetus. It is the time period of how conscious the fetus is/becomes which is what matters to me.

What kind of data do you know/have to support your claim that sex ed needs to be taught earlier? Seems to me that as we've become more sexually liberated as a society and the earlier and earlier we teach sex ed to kids, the worse the use of abortions and rates of teen pregnancies get, not the other way around as you seem to imply.

https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2018/unintended-pregnancy-rates-declined-globally-1990-2014
Over time we have less unwanted pregnancies. What has changed over the years to cause this? I believe it is being able to educate people, and having more options on birth control. There may have been less abortions in earlier years, but I wouldn't call that a fair enlargement, as there simply were not as many options to have abortions/clinics/etc..

There were however unwanted pregnancies that went through and the children ended up being physically and or emotionally abused. Not that that doesn't happen in today's time, it is however getting lessened with the power of information more easily being able to be spread with the power of the internet and social media.

I don't think we're heading in the right direction if the right direction is less abortions and less teen pregnancy.

I believe we are heading in the right direction, as we are able to communicate things more easily which causes more healthy lifestyles and more healthy people in general. We're still in the midst of a bunch of crap, and uneducated people, but we ARE learning as a whole species. Hell look back not too long ago we had slaves, women couldn't vote, gay people we're not as accepted as they are today, emotional/physical abuse towards woman or children was not frowned upon.

 

[Zonfar]

i think Zonfar was trying to say that we need to develop some sort of way to prevent those specific pregnancies that are going to end up being abortions anyways, which i agree with

when i was in high-school, i was hanging out with these "totally hetero" girls who were actually bragging about the huge number of dicks they'd touched, while at the same freaking time telling people they were saving penis-in-vagina-sex for their wedding night

i seriously think blowjobs/eating pussy/hetero anal etc etc should be taught as a way of "having sex" without actually doing "the act that produces babies"

btw, iirc, american teenagers getting STDs went up at the exact same time teenage pregnancy went down

Yes! Exactly!

Preventative measures would cause these conversations to be negated, for if there was no unwanted pregnancy to begin with this obviously wouldnt be an issue (then we could complain about something else )

I love the idea, of from birth every human has the ability to have a child be taken away, HOWEVER they could at any point in their life, go in for a surgery, or pill, or whatever new crazy technology we come up with to get it back. Somewhat along the same lines of what you said. Practice some sort of sexual activity that will not cause pregnancy.

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

Yes! Exactly!

Preventative measures would cause these conversations to be negated, for if there was no unwanted pregnancy to begin with this obviously wouldnt be an issue (then we could complain about something else )

I love the idea, of from birth every human has the ability to have a child be taken away, HOWEVER they could at any point in their life, go in for a surgery, or pill, or whatever new crazy technology we come up with to get it back. Somewhat along the same lines of what you said. Practice some sort of sexual activity that will not cause pregnancy.

that last line made me think of a guy with a foot-fetish jizzing on a girl's toes
but i agree with you
we need to find a way to prevent the unwanted pregnancies

 

[CiG]

I never mentioned specifically the west, I'm speaking world wide. Just because things are nicer over here, doesn't mean we should ignore the problems that ARE happening in other parts of the world

I think you missed the point but fair enough.

https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2018/unintended-pregnancy-rates-declined-globally-1990-2014
Over time we have less unwanted pregnancies. What has changed over the years to cause this? I believe it is being able to educate people, and having more options on birth control. There may have been less abortions in earlier years, but I wouldn't call that a fair enlargement, as there simply were not as many options to have abortions/clinics/etc..

The article makes zero mention of sex ed being a factor, perhaps it is but it's just so small it's not worth bringing up. But contraceptive availability and affordability as well as abortion access plays the biggest role in the declining rates.

There were however unwanted pregnancies that went through and the children ended up being physically and or emotionally abused. Not that that doesn't happen in today's time, it is however getting lessened with the power of information more easily being able to be spread with the power of the internet and social media.

Information is stopping kids from being abused? What do you mean, that the parents google "should I hit my kid" and take heed of the results?

I believe we are heading in the right direction, as we are able to communicate things more easily which causes more healthy lifestyles and more healthy people in general. We're still in the midst of a bunch of crap, and uneducated people, but we ARE learning as a whole species. Hell look back not too long ago we had slaves, women couldn't vote, gay people we're not as accepted as they are today, emotional/physical abuse towards woman or children was not frowned upon.

Now I assume you're only speaking about the west? Because these things all still exist in other parts of the world. Also that once upon a time emotional/physical abuse of women and children wasn't frowned upon is a weird ass lie, where'd you get that from? lmao.

 

[Zonfar]

Information is stopping kids from being abused? What do you mean, that the parents google "should I hit my kid" and take heed of the results?

Yes, it is my belief that the ability to share information causes less negative things in general such as abuse. Parents don't neccasarily need to google "should I hit my kid" (although I've seen countless posts like this before on quora and yahoo answers/etc..) but when TV shows, radio, and various forums come to a general consensus on a topic (such as physical or emotional abuse) being a negative thing, it tends to happen less. Back in my parents day, it was normal to beat your children with a belt, and while it still happens sometimes today, it is FAR less and definitely less accepted than it was back then. We used to people to lions for entertainment, all sorts of things have changed because with the sharing of information we get to see other perspectives, talk about them, and see and feel what we like and dislike as a whole.

Now I assume you're only speaking about the west? Because these things all still exist in other parts of the world. Also that once upon a time emotional/physical abuse of women and children wasn't frowned upon is a weird ass lie, where'd you get that from? lmao.

Maybe it's just my personal bubble, and yes this im referring to as personal experience mainly in the west. I've talked to plenty of people from the older generation where it was the norm to physically and emotionally abuse children and women. It's not that surprising or hard to imagine the generations before us being less empathetic.

Hell, take the people I've personally talked to out of this. Woman's rights really didn't happen that long ago, slavery ended not too long ago, women were burned for practicing "witchcraft", gay people were not accepted. When you tell someone they aren't allowed to do something specifically based on their sexuality, race, skin tone, etc.. This is a form of emotional abuse in my eyes. I can't imagine what it would feel like to want to do something, or be a part of something, but be told NO just because of something I couldn't control while I see the rest of my fellow people being able to do that exact thing I want.