who's the best in COB??

[eveningninja]

Ok guys, plz explain me how you can judge who's the better guitarist.

If I take Alexi and Gilbert as a good example - why do you say that Gilbert is the better guitarist? Imho I think that Alexi reached a level where he can't get any better (if you disregard his last live performences). He can do sweeps, string jumps, fast picking, and all this stuff like a god and I have never seen any thing of Gilbert where I could say that his sweeps, picking stuff and so on is better. But you can't really compare both because it's a different kind of music. Nearly all Racer X songs are from the start to the end focused on the lead guitar whereas Bodom is a metal band with a singer with intro, verse, chorus,... You can ONLY compare both when you give both something they have never played before and THEN you can judge who did a better cover or you give a backing track where where they should improvise something over it.

It bothers me a bit that a lot of you guys think somebody is better because he's longer in business. A lot of people think that Roope is better than Alexi but they just say this because Roope is older and Alexi said a long time ago that he's one of his idols. Same goes for Slayer or AC/DC where I think they both suck.

If you ask me I wouldn't say that Yngwie or Gilbert are better than Alexi because there is no chance to proof it and to be honest... I have never heard any better solos from f.ex. Yngwie and Gilbert than Alexi solos for ETID, Downright Dominate, a lot of Sinergy solos or his playing back in 1999, 2003 or the thing for guitar heroes...

Actualy it should be Alexi>Gilbert/... because Bodom is definitely more famous nowadays and COB=Alexi.

Edit:

I will not say that Alexi is the best guitarist in the world or something but I would put him on the same level as all those old-school guitarist like Gilbert, Romero,bla bla
Only thing I would say is that he's the better songwriter. All made some great songs but not as much as Alexi did. My opinion.

I will easily explain why Gilbert > Alexi.

First of all, it's bullshit that a different kind of music means you cannot observe and analyze their technique for what it is. I can see the motions their hands/fingers are making. Gilbert is FAR more efficient/economical and you can hear this in the clean way he plays. Alexi = tense and sloppy. Doesn't matter that it's a different kind of music.

Gilbert has more economical motion. Watch his fretting fingers, they don't fly off the fretboard like Alexi's do. Gilbert puts this to use by having much more intricate and cleanly-played legato.

Watch Gilbert's right hand. He uses very efficient wrist picking. When attempting high speeds, Alexi tenses up and uses his whole arm to pick. You then see him resort to sweeping and tapping. Notice why these days Alexi replaces many previously alternate-picked lines now with sweeping or tapping? Example: Downfall solo. He does not do this for musical/artistic reason. It's an easy way out for him because he cannot pick relaxed at high speeds. Gilbert can.

Um... the basic observation that all of Gilbert's live performances are twice as clean as Alexi's slop-fest? Gilbert's stuff isn't any easier to play. It's different, and in many ways more complex (Alexi's soloing style is pretty linear), and he nails it live every time. Alexi on the other hand is too busy partying/drinking and thinking he's a badass to practice. Gilbert practices. You know this because his technique remains up to par and he is a guitar teacher <-- this is a good motivation to keep practicing.

Also... watch some Bodom covers. Plenty of people outplay Alexi. Have you seen anyone outplay Gilbert? It's far less plausible.

 

[<Arcane>]

Well, I have to disagree with you. I, for myself, don't care if anyone's using his left or right hand in a more economical/efficent way. If it sounds good and clean then they can play with those elbow so that's nonsense (btw. Alexi has really small fingers. Pauls fingers are BIG). This is not really an argument for Paul because if you would just know their audios, nobody could tell something about the technique because both sound awesome. In this case I would tend to Alexi because his lead tone is cleaner.
In my past COB covers I didn't use my pinky and a lot of people told me that I should use it. But why? I mean I use it nowadays because it's easier to play a lot of stuff but I can't play it better.

And I already mentioned that I'm not talking about Alexis live-performences nowadays because everybody know that he can play.
Also the last thing that a lot of people out there outplay Alexi is also nonsense because:

1. If Alexi would practice more he could be top-notch again + he's singing while playing what nobody on Youtube does
2. Gilberts songs are almost on a higher technical level than COB's songs but it's just because Gilbert's songs are whole insrumental songs
3. Children of Bodom is much more famous and has much more fanbois than Paul, so no wonder why there are more good covers out there
4. Some solos from Alexi are unimpeachable for guitarists. I have never seen any cover from Downright Dominate or any good cover from TLAOD solo...

 

[eveningninja]

Well, I have to disagree with you. I, for myself, don't care if anyone's using his left or right hand in a more economical/efficent way.

It's not nonsense. Way to ignore half of what I'm saying.

"Gilbert puts this to use by having much more intricate and cleanly-played legato."

It doesn't matter solely that he is using more economical motion. If Gilbert sounded the same I wouldn't bring that up, but...

If it sounds good and clean then they can play with those elbow so that's nonsense

It doesn't. You not only can see it in Alexi's inefficient technique but can hear it in his sloppy playing.

Watch Gilbert's right hand. He uses very efficient wrist picking. When attempting high speeds, Alexi tenses up and uses his whole arm to pick. You then see him resort to sweeping and tapping. Notice why these days Alexi replaces many previously alternate-picked lines now with sweeping or tapping? Example: Downfall solo. He does not do this for musical/artistic reason. It's an easy way out for him because he cannot pick relaxed at high speeds. Gilbert can.

(btw. Alexi has really small fingers. Pauls fingers are BIG).

This has nothing to do with anything we are discussing. Small-fingered people can fuck shit up, it's no excuse.

And I already mentioned that I'm not talking about Alexis live-performences nowadays because everybody know that he can play.

what?

1. If Alexi would practice more he could be top-notch again

If I studied in school I'd have better grades. Should my teachers give me good grades just because I COULD have top-notch grades?

he's singing while playing what nobody on Youtube does

Okay? Nobody's arguing about his ability to do that. When it comes to uncleanliness it's mainly his solos, which he is not singing while doing.

Children of Bodom is much more famous and has much more fanbois than Paul, so no wonder why there are more good covers out there

Actually, there are plenty of good PG covers out there, but they're not outplaying him, mainly because PG is playing so well. In comparison, it's not that difficult to outplay Alexi.

 

[<Arcane>]

Ok, talking about Alexis sloppy playing. His playing in the guitar heroes video is totaly awesome and clean as hell. It was also in Tokyo Warhearts and Tuska 2003. Imo you can't play those solos any cleaner.
Any discussion about Alexis "sloppy" playing is bullshit because you can hear how extremely clean his playing is in all album solos. Ok, all solos are mixed and mastered and so on but you can't make a solo sound more "clean" with any mixer. You can just change the tone. And you're talking again and again about Alexis sloppy playing nowadays... I know that nearly all of his live-solos are shit but it's all a matter of practice. Alexi could play it flawless if he wants - it's all a matter of how long he practice it. Alexi was totally awesome when he was younger and you can't get worse on guitar. He just doesn't care about his playing nowadays that much.

All in all you're right that a lot of people could outplay Alexi but you have to remind that all of those Youtube videos are recorded proprably more than one time and if you really would take a look at this guita heroes video, Tuska 2003 or TW you would know that there is NOONE on Youtube who could do it better or even reach the same level. If you can find someone - plz show me. Or show me someone who can play the Downright Dominate solo(s).

 

[(__Joonas__)]

1. If Alexi would practice more he could be top-notch again + he's singing while playing what nobody on Youtube does

That's the thing, people observe Alexi's playing while he's standing, moving and singing in front of a huge crowd, song after song, while the covers are just one song being played comfortably with several takes. Not to take anything away from the covers. The playing is his top priority live; he may screw on the vocals, passages, moshing etc as long as the playing is good... but I think it's all collective and depends on his mood, usually his playing, vocals and stage attitude go hand in hand.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

In comparison, it's not that difficult to outplay Alexi.

Well, I've never seen anyone cover a COB track with lead guitar + vocals and outplay Alexi, if you compare his live performances to the covers. It takes a motivation of its own and correct circumstances and that's why it's uncommon. Imagine how unfair this must feel to Alexi, people making clinical guitar covers and comparing them to his live performances.

 

[eveningninja]

Ok, talking about Alexis sloppy playing. His playing in the guitar heroes video is totaly awesome and clean as hell. It was also in Tokyo Warhearts and

Tuska 2003. Imo you can't play those solos any cleaner.

He played well in those shows, but if you can't tell that he still didn't play fully cleanly, then you're obviously not nearly as nitpicky as me. He played better in Tokyo Warhearts than I've ever really heard him play live, and it's awesome to listen to, but compared to Paul Gilbert who literally plays 99% flawlessly live, it still doesn't compare. Tuska 2003 he played well too, but not near flawlessly. It's not just about cramming in fast notes in an acceptable fashion. Plenty of times his timing is off, missed notes here and there, not smooth transitions between licks, etc. Technique is a deep thing. I'm not blaming him, but if you're comparing him to someone like PG who is always at top notch, then obviously I'm going to point out Alexi's mistakes. There's virtually no mistakes to point out in PG's playing.

You have your own musical opinion, which is obviously what drives most disagreement here, and I doubt you'll ever see this on a plainly objective field. I personally like Alexi's style and compositions much better than Gilbert's, but I view this from an objectively technical point of view, and PG has simply developed far more solidified technique. But I digress, you can never really reason with Alexi fans on this matter.

Well, I've never seen anyone cover a COB track with lead guitar + vocals and outplay Alexi, if you compare his live performances to the covers. It takes a motivation of its own and correct circumstances and that's why it's uncommon. Imagine how unfair this must feel to Alexi, people making clinical guitar covers and comparing them to his live performances.

Alexi has played in plenty of recorded studio sessions (Young Guitar/Guitar World/etc.) and he's sloppy in those too.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Alexi has played in plenty of recorded studio sessions (Young Guitar/Guitar World/etc.) and he's sloppy in those too.

He was hungover and drunk, it's unfair to compare! Jokes aside, I personally don't care if he's got the best "fingers" in the world, as long as he's doing something great and making good music. I'm in this for COB's music more directly than Alexi's guitarheroism. I'm just saying with the touring lifestyle of COB how can you expect to always have your guitar skills honed to perfection.

 

[predator2353]

Come on, Arcane. It's not like you can't see how sloppy Alexi is doing nowadays. Thinking that Roope is better, has nothing to do with age. It has to do with live performance. Indeed Alexi is great songwriter, no doubt about it, but when it comes to live performance, he is just sloppy. You don't see him pulling out the same shit he used to pull out back in the days. I'm sure that if he spends some time, he can get back in shape, but I don't see it happening. Yngwie is way better live performer. After all, when you go to a concert, you hope to hear this technically great performance and get eargasm, right?

 

[eveningninja]

He was hungover and drunk, it's unfair to compare!

...okay? If Alexi is always hungover and drunk (which he pretty much is), then how is he ever going to be a skilled guitarist? If he produces some good playing 5% of the time (that time he's not hungover or drunk), does that qualify him as a good guitarist? The drunk excuse is bullshit.

I'm in this for COB's music more directly than Alexi's guitarheroism.

As is everyone else, that doesn't affect the outcome of an argument between the technical skill of Alexi and PG.

I'm just saying with the touring lifestyle of COB how can you expect to always have your guitar skills honed to perfection.

Exactly. Alexi is not dedicated to musicianship, he's dedicated to just doing what's required and partying. Where do you think guitar skill comes from in the first place? From dedication... so if he's not dedicated, why do you keep defending him? Again, if I party all the time and my knowledge of the class' subject suffers, my professors will give me poor grades, they don't say "oh how can he expect to keep up his grades with his lifestyle..." This is how it is. If he's not dedicated to practicing guitar (and it shows), then he's not that worthy of praise in terms of technicality. That is unfair to people who are dedicated to their instruments.

 

[predator2353]

I think it has to do something with becoming big. Back then you would see them giving their best and performing so good, it's the struggle for survival, because they don't want to end up on the streets or work something else. And when you see them today, it's a whole different story. I don't see the dedication anymore, I don't see the fight for survival. They have the money to keep a normal life going on. Well... kinda to think of it... I think I'm just speaking about Alexi right now Janne still manages to pull off those keyboard solos even tho I don't like his monotone key sound, that he has used for the past few albums (maybe it's not his choice, who knows). The rest of the band is doing just as good I guess. So that's that.

 

[travisscotttharp]

ROOPIE!!!!!!!

 

[(__Joonas__)]

...okay? If Alexi is always hungover and drunk (which he pretty much is), then how is he ever going to be a skilled guitarist? If he produces some good playing 5% of the time (that time he's not hungover or drunk), does that qualify him as a good guitarist? The drunk excuse is bullshit.

You did understand that was a joke... right? You're just pretending you didn't.

If he's not dedicated to practicing guitar (and it shows), then he's not that worthy of praise in terms of technicality. That is unfair to people who are dedicated to their instruments.

You don't have to explain me how alcohol and partying is bad for health and the control of things. I if anyone know that, and have cut down on alcohol radically. It's clear without saying it has huge influence on Alexi, but it is who he is. If he'd lived carefully all his life he'd be a whole different person. Impossible maths. And it does not qualify as excuse. It's Alexi's lifestyle, and I fully realize he could be more brilliant if he could survive without drinking, but it's still amazing what he can do keeping in mind he's been drinking. If I was in Alexi's position, I'd most likely have drank just as much.

Back then you would see them giving their best and performing so good, it's the struggle for survival, because they don't want to end up on the streets or work something else.

Yes, they saw they have a chance to become stars of melodic death metal (do it for work!) and achieve God-like status, with the stuff they had, or otherwise end up working in McDonald's if they stumble, so they dedicated EVERYTHING they got to it, especially Alexi. Then the music changed + breakthru to more mainstream markets with Hate Crew Deathroll + Alexi's personality changed; and it's all linked together.

 

[<Arcane>]

He played well in those shows, but if you can't tell that he still didn't play fully cleanly, then you're obviously not nearly as nitpicky as me. He played better in Tokyo Warhearts than I've ever really heard him play live, and it's awesome to listen to, but compared to Paul Gilbert who literally plays 99% flawlessly live, it still doesn't compare. Tuska 2003 he played well too, but not near flawlessly. It's not just about cramming in fast notes in an acceptable fashion. Plenty of times his timing is off, missed notes here and there, not smooth transitions between licks, etc. Technique is a deep thing. I'm not blaming him, but if you're comparing him to someone like PG who is always at top notch, then obviously I'm going to point out Alexi's mistakes. There's virtually no mistakes to point out in PG's playing.

You have your own musical opinion, which is obviously what drives most disagreement here, and I doubt you'll ever see this on a plainly objective field. I personally like Alexi's style and compositions much better than Gilbert's, but I view this from an objectively technical point of view, and PG has simply developed far more solidified technique. But I digress, you can never really reason with Alexi fans on this matter.



Alexi has played in plenty of recorded studio sessions (Young Guitar/Guitar World/etc.) and he's sloppy in those too.

I think we both really have a different point of view. You are always refer on Alexis live-performance where it is a difference if you only play guitar or do both - playing + singing. Gilbert can concentrate 100% on his playing. But yes, I haven't ever seen Gilbert playing one wrong note or something. But I do also see the album recordings where you can hear that Alexi is playing so damn clean.

All in all Gilbert is definitely better live but you have to see all those little aspects which makes it harder to fully concentrate on guitar playing. Alexi is also a headbanger and he walks a lot on stage what Gilbert didn't do.

One last thing... if you look at where Alexis playing is extremely clean - even in those last improvised things - would you really say that Gilberts technique is cleaner? No way. But this is something I can't really understand.... Why is Alexis playing in this video so clean whereas his playing on all instructional vids/DVD's is so sloppy?!? I mean he's doing video lessons for magazin's and want's people to buy his DVD's but can't play his own stuff and is partly sloppy as fuck but in this guitar heroes video which some dude propably recorded just for fun he's flawless...

+1 for Alexi for being the better songwriter
+1 for Gilbert for being the better live guitarist and teacher

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I wouldn't call this "better live guitarist" than Laiho no matter how clean he is Elaborate "better live guitarist"? This shit is ridicilous.

 

[SilentAfterTerror]

Well Alexi, his writing is the foundation of cob anyways. Apart from his sloppy live solos then the rest I don't mind.

 

[eveningninja]

You are always refer on Alexis live-performance where it is a difference if you only play guitar or do both - playing + singing. Gilbert can concentrate 100% on his playing.... Alexi is also a headbanger and he walks a lot on stage what Gilbert didn't do....

Alexi doesn't walk around headbanging while soloing. He stands there "concentrating," yet all that concentration apparently isn't enough.

But I do also see the album recordings where you can hear that Alexi is playing so damn clean.

We also hear Dragonforce being "damn clean" in recordings, but that really doesn't mean shit in the real world.

One last thing... if you look at THIS where Alexis playing is extremely clean - even in those last improvised things - would you really say that Gilberts technique is cleaner? No way.

Yes. See video I linked below. As I am saying to j000nas, it's not just about speed and hitting all the notes, it's about how difficult your licks are and how much articulation you put into each note. Listen to how defined and articulate every note that PG plays is. Now compare that to Alexi's. Every picked note is the same. PG has the ability to actually vary that up, with stuff like pick angle, pick force, etc.

Also, Alexi's playing cleanly in this video, yes, but let's be honest... what he's playing isn't that difficult. It's pretty linear "shredding." PG is jumping all over the place, string skipping, going through various patterns that require lots of coordination. Alexi is just going up and down. And at a slower speed at that. And sitting down, in a studio. PG's standing up, sweating, and playing live.

I wouldn't call this "better live guitarist" than Laiho no matter how clean he is Elaborate "better live guitarist"? This shit is ridicilous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeUIwqNSnKs

...

This is what I mean by personal musical opinion interfering with objective analysis. So he's not using a distorted tone, so what? He's not a purely metal guitarist, he's known more as a rocker.

Maybe you'll like this more:



^ I'd like to see Alexi attempt anything remotely this difficult.

Btw, it's not just about how many notes per second, it's the fact that PG introduces so much articulation into each of his notes, even at such high speeds.

@Arcane - I'm getting the feeling you just want to argue. I personally think you know that people like PG > Alexi in technicality. In the past I've seen you saying all kinds of things before about how disappointed you are in Alexi's technique, how sloppy he is... etc. And yet now you defend him for some reason. ??? It's like you've regressed back into ultimate fanboi state

 

[<Arcane>]

Well, maybe. I really enjoy watching Gilbert and all of his lessons and stuff and to be honest: Paul Gilbert lessons are only for Paul Gilbert. And when I listen to most of his songs I get bored pretty fast. I'm just a bit pissed about guys who say that Alexi is lame or something and that P.G., Y.M., M.R.,J.B.,... are better guitarists but Alexi easily pawns every of those guys when it comes to song writing.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Alexi can make catchy solos and not just shred patterns.

Sometimes his solo is a melody + straight shred, and so on... but still.

In my mind he's a composer above all, while these guys are guitarists.

 

[SilentAfterTerror]

Alexi can make catchy solos and not just shred patterns.

Sometimes his solo is a melody + straight shred, and so on... but still.

In my mind he's a composer above all, while these guys are guitarists.

Support you there. Alexi does use the same patterns quite often but it just fits the song really well making it really stand out and not just a billion notes per second (referring to shit like DF)