Women and heavy metal.

I think that was referring to me when I listed THE GATHERING and put "old albums" next to it. The very first album had female vocals and I thought they were good. The the follow ups had only female vocals. I preferred the mix of male and female. Always is their best album and my favourite.
 
Someone really forgot to tell me that women don't fit into the world of metal when I got into it very first time. Now I'm in too deep :). I play in a band and my bandmates, they're all male and are really great and never have showed any underestimation towards me. Of course there always are those who don't take me seriously, but I don't care about them, never have, never will.
 
Originally posted by jimbobhickville
. Yes, I know it's a generalization, but have you ever heard of a woman who could play drums like Sean Reinert or guitar like Michael Romeo? I haven't.

What about Jennifer Batten?
 
This is what we call sexist... comparing women and men in listening to metal. Emm... women also have their right to listen to what kind of music they wanted to hear. So, it's up to that person on he/she for get involve in what he/she wanted to be!!!
Even sometimes men sucks heavy metal...
HEAVY METAL IS THE LAW
:cool:
 
Originally posted by jimbobhickville
The Gathering's "old albums" were death metal. Anneke didn't join until later on.

Sorry to be blunt, and I'm sure this will offend a lot of people, but women in general aren't as good of musicians as men. Yes, I know it's a generalization, but have you ever heard of a woman who could play drums like Sean Reinert or guitar like Michael Romeo? I haven't. Every band I've heard that has women in roles other than vocalist has had only decent music. On top of that, most women don't like heavy music. Sure, there are quite a few girls here at UM, but in comparison to the number of guys who are into it, they represent a miniscule minority. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more women getting into it, but until some girl comes along who is a really great musician (other than vocalist), I doubt it'll happen.

I think that perhaps you are underestimating the reality that historically women have been discouraged from learning to play instruments like the drums, or learning to wail away on the guitar. It's not that we aren't capable of great musicianship, so much as it doesn't fit in very well with our society-dictated gender roles. And the reality is the more we try to cross gender barriers, the less seriously we are taken. So often, like WikkidGurl was saying, we're judged by our appearance and not our musical ability.
And just to illustrate my case for talent not being synonymous with maleness - one of my current favourite songwriters and guitarists (male or female) is Samantha Escarbe of Virign Black.
 
This is something I so often wonder and do not understand but I guess it sure has to do with some of the imagery in metal that would turn most women off!
Although it's funny to see that the most "woman-unfriendly" metal genre - Black Metal - attracts more women than the others. But as far as I've seen this is not because of the music itself but more like because the chicks like dressing- and tarting up in this scene; more than in any other.
The genre I'm "at home" (and very lonely as a female) is Progressive Metal. This phenomenon about the lack of females is even more obvious there. Regularly, when I go to gigs I find myself more or less the only girl being heavily into the music *understanding* and digging it; normally the relation is 90:10 males to females and of the 10% girls another 8% are bad-mood-faces-pulling women who have been dragged along by their boyfriends..... Last week at the IQ-gig (yes, it's EVEN worse in the progrock genre!) I spotted 6 other women among about 300 poeple -- and found this very very sad. It makes me getting all the looks from the blokes!! :rolleyes:
The only explanation I find: Especially in progmetal most the fans are musicians themselves and for most "normal people" it is simply too "high, complex and complicated" -- especially for women. True also that hardly any girls play an instrument or write their own music alas don't have the deeper understanding for it.
Once again I'm proud yet sad to prove an exception to the rule -- probably being one of the only females writing and playing all my music alone, one of the few who know Cubase not to be the name of a make-up or something!
As great I still feel in such a male-dominated scene it doesn't make me particularly proud being a woman seeing the lack of us here!!!!
Also, it could be that babies to most women I'm afraid are a lot more appealing than hairy, smelly, burping and headbanging blokes! :p
 
Originally posted by Madrigal
This is something I so often wonder and do not understand but I guess it sure has to do with some of the imagery in metal that would turn most women off!
Although it's funny to see that the most "woman-unfriendly" metal genre - Black Metal - attracts more women than the others. But as far as I've seen this is not because of the music itself but more like because the chicks like dressing- and tarting up in this scene; more than in any other.
The genre I'm "at home" (and very lonely as a female) is Progressive Metal. This phenomenon about the lack of females is even more obvious there. Regularly, when I go to gigs I find myself more or less the only girl being heavily into the music *understanding* and digging it; normally the relation is 90:10 males to females and of the 10% girls another 8% are bad-mood-faces-pulling women who have been dragged along by their boyfriends..... Last week at the IQ-gig (yes, it's EVEN worse in the progrock genre!) I spotted 6 other women among about 300 poeple -- and found this very very sad. It makes me getting all the looks from the blokes!! :rolleyes:
The only explanation I find: Especially in progmetal most the fans are musicians themselves and for most "normal people" it is simply too "high, complex and complicated" -- especially for women. True also that hardly any girls play an instrument or write their own music alas don't have the deeper understanding for it.
Once again I'm proud yet sad to prove an exception to the rule -- probably being one of the only females writing and playing all my music alone, one of the few who know Cubase not to be the name of a make-up or something!
As great I still feel in such a male-dominated scene it doesn't make me particularly proud being a woman seeing the lack of us here!!!!
Also, it could be that babies to most women I'm afraid are a lot more appealing than hairy, smelly, burping and headbanging blokes! :p

:ill: :ill: I'll take hairy, smelly, burping and
headbanging blokes over babies. I think it's an inferiority complex. Some girls aren't confident in themselves so they believe the T&A stereotypes that society puts for them. Some guys seem to need a trophy girlfriend because its not macho to suck on a pacifier. And some people are able to think beyond stereotypes. I find alot of how people will perceive you is in the way you hold yourself. If you carry on like a bimbo you get treated like a bimbo. If you act professionally and arent afraid to bust chops when you need to, you will be taken seriously. I have never cared about anyones opinion of me. I am a 100% estrogen driven head banging metalhead. I will die a metal head. My last request is to be buried in my blue jeans and leather jacket. Face down so the world can kiss my blessed assurance. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
 
Hehehehe..... so well brought down to the point!
Still I think that most women are quite happy to play the role society presses them into. They are simply NOT INTERESTED in other things, let alone music.
Inferiority complex that may stop them? Ummm... I see plenty of chicks in the BlackMetal scene with HUGE complexes like that (shows in how they stare at you, envious eyes taxing from top to bottom, deciding to hate you for no reason but your looks) - and by being into the scene they try to arificially improve their personality - or at least so it seems.
Suppose I'll never understand.............
 
Originally posted by Madrigal

The only explanation I find: Especially in progmetal most the fans are musicians themselves and for most "normal people" it is simply too "high, complex and complicated" -- especially for women. True also that hardly any girls play an instrument or write their own music alas don't have the deeper understanding for it.
Once again I'm proud yet sad to prove an exception to the rule -- probably being one of the only females writing and playing all my music alone, one of the few who know Cubase not to be the name of a make-up or something!

Did you really mean that like it sounds? Because if you did - that's one of the attitudes that keep women as a minority in heavy music.

Too complicated, especially for women? Give me a break. Women are fully as capable as men of understanding complex musical forms, and there are countless brilliant female composers to prove it. Just because you haven't seen them at your prog rock concerts doesn't mean they don't exist. And one of the only females writing and playing all your music alone? Get off your high horse. I don't mean this as a personal attack, but you make it sound like you're brilliant and almost every other woman is a stupid and incompetent moron.

When women start setting themselves up as unique exceptions it often leads to the few who are involved in the heavier scenes viewing each other as competition, when women should be supporting each other in the face of the overwhelming male-dominance of the aggressive music scene.

Edit: However you meant what you said, I do think it's great that you're crossing gender barriers and not conforming to stereotypes.
 
Hi Ilamaura!
Sorry if you (being a woman yourself) felt “attacked” by my words. Understandably so - and also, to me, LUCKILY so, for I really appreciate being challenged for discussion about this subject - especially by a fellow woman! :D
This question as of *why* there are not more women into metal bugs me for a while now -- would I be happy about being “an exception” as I may have given the impression ---- I would not bother thinking about it further in the first place, would I, but... yes, happily accept things as they are and carry on my ride on the high horseback sunbathing in my own uniqueness and enjoying having such few "competitors"!

You must understand that my words on this subject are always pretty emotionally-driven.
It simply drives me mad sometimes not to see more of us! It makes me sad, also -- and most of all, it makes me **wonder**.
And so I throw in all possible assumptions:
- Are women too stupid for complex music?
- Are women too whimpy for heavy guitars?
- Do they not understand it?
- Are they just not interested?
WHAT IS IT??

I simply do not understand it and so out of sheer frustration I may throw in provocative (hehe, at least it worked!) comments like I have done.
STILL... the lack of us women in the scene is a fact. You speak of countless brilliant female composers? Umm... can you please name a few of them?? No doubt they do exist; off hand I can think of a few like Tori Amos or Kate Bush (I *highly* admire both of them!) but then it slowly runs dry.... I love Anneke from the Gathering or this young girl on AMBEON - but neither of them latter two write music, “only” lyrics.
Really, you have to admit that the **realtion** just is not right.
When I look at my cd-collection that spans stuff from many different genres, not only metal, I still find 95% if not more of musician's names to be.... male.
(Quite similar with my books for some reason, if not quite so bad!)

And women in metal music - if they ARE there - sorry - are mainly meant as eye-candy (sex sells) or terribly untalented whine-bags. (see this recent “beauty-and-the-beast” boom in a lot of Goth/BM-stuff)

It makes me mad JUST BECAUSE deep down I’m convinced that women *could* do better - but why don’t they?! Why do most seem to LIMIT THEMSELVES?! (sorry, don't mean to shout)

How do *you* see that, Ilamaura?

Ooops - and have I ever said my own music was brilliant and all other women’s crap?! Sorry if it got through like this.
That I never met any others does not mean they don't exist, surely not. Still it would be nice to see just a few more!

Ufff... so many words now and I’m still not sure if I brought it to the point, but I hope you will understand better now where I am coming from and that my words didn’t root in pride but more like in sadness, frustration and sheer puzzle.

After all.... it may simply be - not a lack of intelligence on us women's part -- but to do with *interest*. This is the explanation I came to live with lately - also the only one that makes most sense. What do you think?
 
Madrigal:

Thanks for clarifying. I do see where you're coming from better now.

I can't argue with the fact that the number of women in metal - particularly instrumentalists and songwriters is shamefully small. It frustrates me too.
I haven't done any research on the subject or anything, but from my own experience I see so many different factors influencing this. I touched on some of these before, but I'll name off some of them and you can see if they make any sense to you:

History: Historically, in all genres of music, women who compose and perform music and display enormous talent have been viewed more as performing monkeys than as serious musicians, like - oh look what tricks she can do! On top of this, when the recording industry began to take hold women were only used as vocalists, not as intrumental players, and only occasionally as songwriters. If you take a look at all music genres today you will still see women underrepresented as actual composers and players. Even in pop there are way more women who play the eye candy role than that of serious musician. And this extends to other industries as well, like science and technology. Women are still recovering from thousands of years of subjugation. I've seen improvements in the 12 years or so I've been into metal, so it's bound to keep getting better, but it moves slow.

Image: Metal has a bad reputation to those who don't understand the genre as a whole. Misogynistic lyrics, sexist imagery, lots of screaming and noise. This kind of stuff turns women off metal before they can look a little deeper into the forms that are more meaningful and less anti-female. Still, on the whole, playing killer heavy guitar or kicking as on the drums, or whatever - there are a lot of left over masculine connotations to that kind of behaviour, all tied up in virility and power issues. It may be the 21st century, but many women are still afraid to break down traditional gender barriers and take on a powerful role.

Attitudes of others, especially men in the scene: Like you said, women in metal are often just eye candy. That's exactly the problem. We're not judged by our talent by so many people as much as we're judged by our ability to turn the boys on. And what good is a hot woman behind the drums where she can hardly be seen? Even a guitar strapped across her chest gets in the way of a clear view of what she has to "offer." I bet a lot of people don't even realize how much their opinion of a woman's looks affects their opinion of her talent.
But from this standpoint, at least women who are hot and talented should be at a great advantage. Except when you remember some of the things I said about women as performing monkeys. We're viewed far more as novelties rather than serious musicians. This is probably a bad example, particularly since she's a vocalist rather than an instrumentalist, but look at all the hype that's surrounded Angela Gossow's joining Arch Enemy - she's under way more pressure than a new male singer would be in her situation. Not only does she need to prove herself, but she's also acting as a representative for women as aggressive singers in general. There are a lot of people who doubt a woman can keep that kind of thing up, and if she fails what kind of effect is that going to have on the next woman who tries?

From my own experience - growing up I had few female role models, especially when it comes to heavy music. The most outstanding one I can remember is Joan Jett. :rolleyes: Compare that to the hundreds of role models aspiring male musicians have, and that's bound to have an effect. When I tried playing the drums as a wee kid, it was seen as cute, but no one encouraged me to actually learn. I never imagined back then that it was something for women do as well as guys. I was given piano lessons, but not guitar lessons, and when I did get a guitar one Christmas it was an acoustic, not an electric.
When I finally joined a metal band, they wanted a chick who could sing and play keyboards (and look good), so I put the guitar aside because I didn't have time to do everything. I came up with all my own keyboard parts and vocal melodies and worked on the song arrangements, but when I tried to contribute to the actual song structure my ideas were subtly marginalized. Even some of my arrangement ideas were rejected and then brought back later - more acceptable because now one of the guys was suggesting my ideas as new. I always had to fight to have any real say in anything and then I was viewed as bitchy or bossy, and if they gave in it was to humour me.
I turned to writing songs alone so my ideas would actually be used and developed. And now I'm kicking myself that I never learned to play the drums, and let my guitar playing die off like that.

As for talented women composers - I was actually thinking about classical music when I said that. I listen to a lot of classical radio and I'm always hearing these wonderful new compositions by female composers, and this to me shows that women are fully capable of understanding the complexities of music. Even when I was studying music, most of the other girls may not have been into metal, but they had no more trouble grasping difficult and complicated music than the guys did.
But as for women in metal, I mentioned in a previous thread Samantha Escarbe from Virgin Black. I find her very inspiring. She's not the only one, but there definitely needs to be more!

Wow, this has been one really long rant. :)
 
Wow, that was one long, but brilliant rant! You have brought it down to the point very impressively and summed it all up; facts, whether we like them or not!
But luckily there are the so-called "exceptions to the rule" which you yourself prove nicely....
It will be like this in all fields or culture and society where us women try to establish ourselves as equals: a woman has to be twice as talented, twice as bright, twice as clever as any male in order to get the same recognition. Leaves the question open whether it would really help if you're good-looking or not. Could have both effects - attrack more attention in the first place, or distract from the talent, when all that is being focused on is appearance. I guess it helps to leave a better impression though!

No wonder we are "doomed" to do our thing on our own if any (male-dominated) band constantly disregards ideas and input coming from the girl-member, not taking us seriously. We seem to have all made similar experience there - sadly so.
I find it the top of the cheek though that later one of the guys came up with *your* initial idea - which then got accepted, coming from the bloke.
*scream* :mad:

Have you ever tried to find fellow females to form a band? Any luck ever?

I will check out Samantha Escarbe from Virgin Black - if she's one of the rare hopes on the horizon she'll be worth supporting and encouraged in her example.

Thanks again for that rant - it was a great read!

PS: now go and learn to play the darned drums! It's never too late!! ;)
 
"Tyrant in Distress",

yes, I fully agree - all bands listed by you have great female vocalists!
So do Tristania, Provenance, Into Eternity ... and I'm sure there's many more!

Quality does rise above the surface of a lot of crap sometimes!