wtf...Extol is christian death metal?!

oh noes, music with a message. can't have that. i hope you realize that just about everything you listen to contains some message or another. why deny others the freedom to express theirs, unless you fear it? if it is truly harmless, then you've got nothing to worry about.

if it's not your thing, then don't listen to it. i've never made a comment like "that band is satanic so they suck", older board members can attest to that. and finally, if you're pissed off at a band just because they want to express their devotion, surely you have issues with wanting to control other people's minds.
 
I say its just a shame they have to be described as Christian Death or Black Metal or whatever. Why do they get a special extra word before their genre? Its not fair in this PC world of ours. It doesnt matter if they believe whatever or want to sing about whatever but it doesn't make them any different to any other kind of Black/Death/Whatever music, ya know. Its just a shame that a band needs to sell itself on its religion and not their talent. Surely the music itself should be the main priority. If they happen to be Christians, Satanists Jedi's whatever, who cares as long as its good?
 
Silent Song said:
oh noes, music with a message. can't have that. i hope you realize that just about everything you listen to contains some message or another.

Actually, no. No it doesn't. I can think of very few bands in my record collection that are actually expressing any kind of message at all. I'm not a fan of bands with any kind of agenda, whether it be religious or political. I listen to music because I love music, not because I feel like being lectured by someone.


Silent Song said:
why deny others the freedom to express theirs, unless you fear it?

I am denying them the freedom to express their 'message' by... what? By not wanting to listen to their music? I don't deny anyone anything. But I am free to think that their message sucks and therefor I don't have to listen to it. And I don't.


Silent Song said:
if you're pissed off at a band just because they want to express their devotion, surely you have issues with wanting to control other people's minds.

I honestly have no clue what you mean by that sentence. You're weird, dude. Maybe all those hours of listening to Stryper have gone to your head.
 
vampyrouss said:
I say its just a shame they have to be described as Christian Death or Black Metal or whatever. Why do they get a special extra word before their genre? Its not fair in this PC world of ours. It doesnt matter if they believe whatever or want to sing about whatever but it doesn't make them any different to any other kind of Black/Death/Whatever music, ya know. Its just a shame that a band needs to sell itself on its religion and not their talent. Surely the music itself should be the main priority. If they happen to be Christians, Satanists Jedi's whatever, who cares as long as its good?


Amen, Vampyrouss!
I agree 100%!
 
vampyrouss said:
I say its just a shame they have to be described as Christian Death or Black Metal or whatever. Why do they get a special extra word before their genre? Its not fair in this PC world of ours. It doesnt matter if they believe whatever or want to sing about whatever but it doesn't make them any different to any other kind of Black/Death/Whatever music, ya know. Its just a shame that a band needs to sell itself on its religion and not their talent. Surely the music itself should be the main priority. If they happen to be Christians, Satanists Jedi's whatever, who cares as long as its good?


I disagree. I wanna know what i am listening to. I wanna know what the guys behind the music a little bit.

Thes is a diffrence between Christian Black metal and black metal.
The lyrcis are diffrent. Maybe not very much but very often they reflect diffrent issues.

I don`t have anything against anyone whatever they may sing about but i sure want to know what they sing about and what the guys behind the music stands for.

By the way, Crimson moonlight is probably more brutal then many so called satanic bands.

;)
 
first of all: I'm purely atheist and I realize more than most people all to well that satanic bands put on shows (most of them that is). I know the true meaning of those satanic messages ...
but you can't possibly deny that black metal is meant to create a hellish demonic atmosphere! who is being ignorant then! ... Hell and demons are human inventions, so the accompanying sound is too ...

of course christians have anger and stuff too, wich they can express, but why would they use music that is per definition against christianity? ... THAT is hypocrite and ignorant.
the way I see it: christianity has taken away so many things already, and every time new things come along, especially when it is contra-christianity, it seems that so many christians try to either destroy and abollish it, or make a christian version out of it ... religious imperialism!

and I said that Extol isn't death metal according to me ... it doesn't sound death metal at all if you ask me. and I think that -core music (hardcore, emocore, ....) offers a great platform for any sort of religion or ideology to express those emotions in.
personally, the message in art is important for me, so christian music is (for me) very offensive, so I don't listen to it. I'm not saying it should be forbidden or something (although the world would better off without religion), but yes, I won't listen to it, although I always give music a chance so I do listen once, like I listened to Extol too (good drummer!).

Hope I made myself more clear now ... being called ignorant of being judged in that narrowminded way as some have done here, just by reading one forumpost (with a couple of sentences) is really dumb! you can always contact me for a real debate or something, and you'll see soon enough that I'm not ignorant at all ... you don't even know me okay?!
 
But selling your music on your religion is as shallow as a pop star selling their music on their looks. The music has to come first if you are a musician.

There are bound to be good christian bands and rubbish ones, just like there is some dire black and death metal and some really great stuff too.

And yeah, its cool to know their beliefs, but what I meant is it wouldn't change my opinion of a band to find out they are christians.

Bands who preach are a lot different to bands who just happen to have a message. Opeth have messages in their songs, but you can't say they are preaching those messages. If one of the members was a Christian, would that make Opeth a Christian Death Metal Band? You don't have to babble on about your beliefs in your band, and its shallow to do so. Why not just make great music instead and if you happen to be of a certain belief, great. But preaching anything as "entertainment" is more evil than the most Necro-Black Metal!!!
 
Black Session said:
but you can't possibly deny that black metal is meant to create a hellish demonic atmosphere! who is being ignorant then! ... Hell and demons are human inventions, so the accompanying sound is too ...


Black Session said:
of course christians have anger and stuff too, wich they can express, but why would they use music that is per definition against christianity? ...

I don't think it is per definition against christianity. All because a few bands decided that they wanted to sound evil or scary or 'like the devil' doesn't mean that the music is as such, nor does it mean that they succeeded in 'sounding like the devil'. If it is a human creation then why do you feel obligated to buy into that musical definition as if it were truth, as if it were valid? On the one hand you say you don't believe in religion, but yet you hold that what some random guys from Europe said when they created the black metal sound is true? I could create music and say to me it is flower metal, and is supposed to feel like the plight of flowers as they weather the seasons. You're under no obligation to believe me. As I don't know what the devil or demons sound like (nor do I believe in them) I view the vocals and sound as a convention. 'Scary' and 'Satanic' are two different things.

Black Session said:
and I think that -core music (hardcore, emocore, ....) offers a great platform for any sort of religion or ideology to express those emotions in.

Why? If someone expresses their emotions best through a particular sound of music then why should they try to make their music sound like something else. I don't like a heavy Christian message either, but I respect people who are true to their musical roots and express themselves that way. If they wanted to write metal, listened to metal, and everything they naturally wrote sounded like metal, I personally would have much less respect for them if they forced themselves to write gospel of soft Christian Contemporary rock or some bullshit, some type of music that 'sounded Christian' or whatever the hell (heh) that means. If Humans invented Christianity and the Devil and Demons and Heaven and Hell, can they not also define what those things sound like? Furthermore, are other humans then bound to believe that definition?

The idea of metal being satanic by definition is so ridiculous, and is just a perpetuation of rock (when it was in its infancy) as the devil's music. In the 1950's, Elvis Presley and Jerry Lee Lewis sounded like the devil and the devil's music. Today, rock is rock, and within that there can be christian, satanic, atheistic, polytheistic.... whatever. Why can't metal also evolve? It has been undergoing sonic evolutions since its inception, why can't it also undergo thematic and lyrical broadening and evolution?

Also, I am not attacking, I am trying to prompt discussion. :) Cheers!
 
@ autumnal: well I didn't say metal is per definition satanic, but death and black metal are ... you even say it yourself that the people who invented it, started it that way, so it is that ... of course people can do with it as they want, freedom in art ... but I just can't understand why any convinced christian would use this kind of music. that also means they listened to those bands a lot and liked it, although it was totally against anything they believed in ... and yes, once again, according to me that is hypocrite.

and also, i'm not saying they HAVE to use a certain defined form of expression ... but mostly they do, and they use the defined forms of black or death metal, the only difference, christian message ... and there is that aspect of religious imperialism again as i've mentioned before.
i can understand what you are saying, and i think it's mainly out of an openmindedness towards all kind of music, wich i totally agree with. but when a band promotes certain things, than i can not simply ignore that ...
like Extol, in Belgium they finished their show with: god bless you all .. and he made a cross-sign in the air. from that point on, i can not simply listen to the music without relating it to their believes wich they promote in it.

oh well, we disagree i guess ... but it's not because i'm such an adept of black metal or anything, I'm just someone who has very strong principles about stuff like this.
 
how the heck did this thread turn into yet ANOTHER "omgz Christians" war?

musically speaking, there are good death metal bands and bad death metal bands. i think all can at least agree to that. each of us has our own favorites. nobody's forcing anyone to *have* to like every band out there. Black Session, i understand that you're not into it, and that's cool. but please, stfu when other people discuss it, we don't need an obligitory "they suck" from the token naysayer. there's always going to be one, and you don't need to voice your opinion on the matter... I'm sure you've heard bands whose lyrics or performance reference satan, or thor, or what have you. if these are all as make-believe to you as God, then what issue do you present with one message while accepting others? consider this...
 
Hello guys, i'm kind of new here but i saw this thread and it looked very interesting so here is my take on it.

Black Session: I understand where you are coming from, man. It seems like 'christian' metal offends you as 'satanic' metal would offend most christians, and that is understandable seeing as you would have opposing views to christianity. But it goes both ways, if you don't like christian metal you dont have to listen to it, just like a christian who has opposing views to satanic bands doesnt have to listen to them either. Every one is entitled to their opinion and you obviously have yours, and we all respect that.

My opinion is this: i agree with those who defend extol and any other musician to use whatever music they want to say whatever they want. Its a free world you know? If they like metal, why cant they use that as medium to talk about what THEY want to talk about, just like the people who want to talk about evil and stuff do? And about listening to metal making christian hypocrites: I understand where you are coming from, yes, metal (esp Black) was originally intended to be against christianity, but like many others have said already, music is music. Yes it evokes certain emotions, but Christianity is not always about happy feelings and joy. Being a Christian myself I can tell you that for sure. Hell, all humans feel what would be considered 'negative' emotions no matter what they believe. But if listening to death metal and black metal would make a christian hypocritical, wouldnt an atheist listening to a band who happens to have members that are christian, who talk about christian things, would that make the athiest hypocritical too? My opinion is no, not if it does not influence how they think. I personally listen to a lot of bands that would be considered satanic or whatever, like Disgorge, Emperor, Hate Eternal, etc knowing this full well, but you know what, i can say that as a musician, i listen to it purely for the music, for what it is. I understand what they're viewpoints are for the most part but i have my own beliefs and I stand by them. I just happen to like the style of music they play and i am convinced that i would not be able to become a truly good metal musician if not for listening to the secular bands who excel at that style of music.

As far as to the original topic, Extol's earlier stuff (Burial and Undecieved) border on death/black metal STYLE, borrowing from each. Crimson Moonlight's new album, Veil of Rememberance is also of that hybrid of styles as well. Also, American band Becoming the Archetype is another good band that happens to be Christian, mixing Death and Black and a bit of core into their styles (not enough core to be called metalcore though). But yeah, Extol now is far from what they used to be (though i personally love their new stuff, its very unique and no one sounds quite like them).

I hope what i said made sense. Rock on! :headbang:
 
it seems like everyone suddenly sees me as the representative of satanism?? ...
oh well, weird. i didn't say they suck .. i even said i liked the drummer ...
i simply expressed my opinion on christian death metal ...
and as a matter of fact, i couldn't care less if a band sings about thor or satan or whatever ...

the music of death and black expresses something too ... not only words ... it's like every one thinks of music and words like they are two different things that aren't connected ...

oh well, I will just stfu now ... if that is the kind of stupid remarks i get for expressing my opinion. silent song: you can't handle it if someone has a different opinion? they have to say yes to everything you say? ...
i'm done with this subject ...
 
hey Black Session: hey man im sry if you feel that way, it really is unfair how everybody seems to be jumping only on you, even my self and for that I apologize. Like I said everyone has opinions and I believe all opinions should be respected.

Lets just enjoy some good music, k?:cool:
 
EveOfDarkness said:
hey Black Session: hey man im sry if you feel that way, it really is unfair how everybody seems to be jumping only on you, even my self and for that I apologize. Like I said everyone has opinions and I believe all opinions should be respected.

Lets just enjoy some good music, k?:cool:
yes, no ill-will intended on my part. I'm just defending what i see as the rightful place of any form of music... good music for all! :headbang:
 
Here is my take. I've heard plenty of Death and Black metal music, and frankly, it kicks ass. It's good music, enjoyable to listen to. Now, why shouldn't a band like Extol or Crimson Moonlight be able to use this music without being thought of as hypocrites? CM is one of the better brutal bands around anyway. From a Christian perspective, there ought not to be anything inherently evil about it. Paul himself stated that there is nothing evil of itself, but what matters is if people themselves are convicted in it, and this passage refers primarily to what people ingest, which I consider to include music. Following this line of thinking, if a Christian band wants to use black/death metal and write Christian lyrics to it, they ought to be able to do so and have it simply considered "music". It is certainly better than most mainstream Christian acts out there, most of which are horribly boring.

I am in a Christian rock band. I write nearly all the lyrics. Our sound is more inspired by Opeth and Black Sabbath than, say, Stryper. I don't like Stryper. I don't care for preachy Christian music. If a person wants to be preached to, they ought to go to church or watch any of a number of Christian TV stations. Music isn't a place to preach, at least not in metal. However, metal is an excellent place to express a message, whether that message be dark and evil or uplifting and positive. The music may be associated with dark messages, because of the first and best bands to popularize the genre having that sort of message. However, as intelligent music lovers we must learn to separate the music from the message. If a band is playing Emperor-style riffs but singing about the beauty of Christ's sacrifice for us, is that black metal still evil? I don't think so.

On a separate note, I don't see why Christian music is so happy anyway. Our music ought to reflect our actual belief system, which is based on Jesus being brutally beaten and hung on a cross to die. Also, we regularly re-enact a supper in which we "eat the body and drink the blood of Christ". Pretty gory if you ask me. Why is our music all butterflies and rainbows? It shouldn't be. Personally I feel that Crimson Moonlight and Zao reflect the realities of Christianity much better than Stryper or Third Day.

Feel free to discuss.
 
RDreamer said:
Personally I feel that Crimson Moonlight and Zao reflect the realities of Christianity much better than Stryper or Third Day.

Holy crap i hate Third Day with a passion.:yuk: my brother listens to that kind of music. :puke: I'm right there with you man. Christian music shouldnt have to be all happy all the time. It comes off as extremely cheesy in most cases and alienates a lot of people who are the very ones the artists are trying to bring the message to! Thats what i say any ways. But then again, not every type of music is going to appeal to every person. Some people like cheesy happy music, thats fine. But some people don't. But we dont have to listen to an evil message either. If someone wants to hear an evil message, then they have plenty of metal bands they can listen to. But i dont think its wrong for people who like metal but want to hear a positive message within that musical context to be deprived of that just because its 'not right'. Everyone should have the freedom to do in music what you want. One of the beauties of music is that there is so much you can do with it. To me, its a more powerful medium than visual or even speech. Music transcends all those things. So that being said, music being such a vast concept, for lack of a better term, each and every individual should be able to enjoy it the way he or she wants to. Thats what i think.