wtf...Extol is christian death metal?!

[Kenneth R.]

Wow guys i am truly impressed by this board. The same topic has been debated in other forums, namely MX forums...

not to sidetrack, but i used to be a head-moderator there, and i couldn't agree more.

i favor a good debate. by all means fellow Opeth fans, i'd like to discuss these and other matters, because even if we disagree, we may both learn something from the discussing!

 

[Black Session]

indeed, it's not about the satanic stuff, but about anti-christianity with those bands, and for that the best way is to present yourself as their established enemy: satan .. albeit mostly in a metaphoric way (in this I can recognize myself).
oh well, I obviously don't agree with the church burning (especially since they burnt the oldest wooden church in the world, wich is a monument, a statement of human history) ... but still, in a mentally twisted way it comes as a late reaction against all the agression that christianity presented (and still presents).
oh btw, I think members of Emperor DID participate in churchburning and stuff ... but I'm not 100% sure, on their own site it's vaguely referenced to in their biography.

(and also: syncretism actually means the urge or obligation in certain religions to convert other people ... one way they do that is then to take over every "pagan" deity and ritual and habits)

 

[soundave]

(and also: syncretism actually means the urge or obligation in certain religions to convert other people ... one way they do that is then to take over every "pagan" deity and ritual and habits)

That's a shade of meaning that was never emphasized in my anthropological studies. I wasn't aware of it, actually. It's hard for me to imagine missionaries willingly creating a syncretic religion such as santeria. I could certainly be wrong about this, and I relent to those who have more experience in this matter than I do. I mean, I'm aware that missionaries in Africa equated the saints with the local deities. But that isn't really what I meant by syncretism.

 

[NoneSoVile]

Extol were ok when they supported Opeth. Im not into religion at all so any messege thats in their music is usually missed with me....

 

[RDreamer]

This is all a very cultural thing. Syncretism is most prevalent, obviously, when the host culture is most superstitious. Take the Latin cultures, for instance. They are very superstitious and hold festivals to their ancestors, so the Catholic Church when trying to convert them simply turned many of the festivals into worship of Mary, Jesus and various saints. It's still idolatrous, but it does fit the culture. Christmas and Easter are the same; Jesus was not raised from the dead on Easter but rather three days after Passover, which this year was a month after Easter, and Christmas is simply a solstice festival.

Black Metal took root in a place where Christianity was fought and fought hard- Scandinavia, where Arastran beliefs (such as those demonstrated by Amon Amarth) run deep. The Norse are a deeply spiritual people and to venture a guess, I would say that the root of Luciferianism and Satanism is more of a reaction to Christian missionary efforts rather than an actual affinity for the devil.

In any case, when there is a successful form of expression, such as a festival, which people enjoy, it has long been common practice for Christians to take it over. I highly doubt that white metal is in any way a plot to proselytize black metal listeners; but rather a true appreciation for the art form. I love black metal, I don't like it's general message of doom and evil and anti-Jesus. For that reason I generally don't listen to Dimmu or Darkthrone, and when I do I tune out the lyrics and concentrate on the orchestral atmosphere created therein. Metal, particularly of the black variety, speaks to my heart and soul like nothing else. It excites me, it motivates me, it gives me inner peace and happiness. I truly appreciate the art form. It is a blessing to me when I can read a lyric sheet and find something that does not trouble my spirit.

Does it bother me when I hear of black metal band members burning churches? Certainly. But sin is sin. If we have done one thing wrong we are as guilty as anyone else before God. I will not be able to find an artist anywhere who has not done something that might upset my sensibilities so I simply try to appreciate the music for what it is, and live my life how God would want me to. In keeping with that goal, I strive to take the good influence of music to heart, and keep the bad out. This is sometimes difficult with metal, but worth the effort. Just my two cents.

 

[Black Session]

about syncretism a little more: this aspect is inherent in christianity (and islam), it is in obligation as christian or moslim to try to convert people by showing them the "true way" or something ... of course, when confronted with people who think differently christians and moslims have used and still use other means to persuade ... one of these means being to take over the religious symbols and rituals. most christians don't even know that in whole of christianity there almost isn't anything original! everything, and I mean everything, from organization to rituals to beliefs to morality to saints to ...

someone said about black and white thinking ... well, I'm not trying to offend people but christianity (and islam and judaism and others) are per definition black-white visions. the belief in a Good and an Evil determines how we in western society for example categorize the world. this originates in zoroastrism (persian religion) by the way: the ongoing war between Good and Evil, while humans are in between. this has caused so many wars, because it justifies that who or what is against your God of belief, is automatically Evil. I understand that most christians have a more moderate view, but still, this sort of thinking is very much present in the way people think and debate.

and finally: black metal isn't about expressing emotions so much, it's about war. so if christians make their "unblack" metal, than it is a war agains satan and his followers, or against anything that oposes christianity. and doesn't this seem very unchristian? war against other people? ...

I could debate christianity on itself by the way, but I won't out of respect for this forum. but I must say I will never understand how christians can see themselves as one group, because nowadays every christian beliefs something else apparantly, and all of you seem to belief that THAT is the true way. I can't understand how anyone can say that he/she has the one truth and knows what some God wants ...
As a matter of fact, if that God existed, and a new Jesus would arise (or a new Mohammed would come as messenger), he would be treated the exact same way all over again. how contradictory is that ....

finally: atheism and satanism can be combined perfectly (someone said it couldn't) but with this I mean a metaphorical way of satanism since atheism doesn't have symbols or moral rules dictated, and you need this when you want to oppose to a certain religion (since symbols are the strongest way to express your ideas, and often the only way you can make someone understand what you mean). also, if you are against christianity as much as I am (and other organized religion, but I live in the Western world so I deal with christianity only) than satanism is a perfect tool to show you are against it, as I and others feel the way to show that, since I hope that some day it will no longer exist. in that way I also am a syncretist (fight your enemy with the same weapons).
but I hope it's become evident that I'm not one of those idiots who go about and murder or beat up other people for their beliefs, and simply scream things of wich they know nothing. I do know what I'm talking about, I have some historical founding (it's what I study, almost graduated).

 

[Kenneth R.]

and finally: black metal isn't about expressing emotions so much, it's about war. so if christians make their "unblack" metal, than it is a war agains satan and his followers, or against anything that oposes christianity. and doesn't this seem very unchristian? war against other people? ...

I could debate christianity on itself by the way, but I won't out of respect for this forum. but I must say I will never understand how christians can see themselves as one group, because nowadays every christian beliefs something else apparantly, and all of you seem to belief that THAT is the true way. I can't understand how anyone can say that he/she has the one truth and knows what some God wants ...
As a matter of fact, if that God existed, and a new Jesus would arise (or a new Mohammed would come as messenger), he would be treated the exact same way all over again. how contradictory is that ....

couple points of clarification:
1. war against other people? i see no reason to simply give up and be destroyed by those who feel my beliefs are threatening to their comfortable living. however, i will not pursue violent means to defend myself. that is the difference. Christianity is not pacifism, its activism in a nonviolent way.

2. on contradiction- (because no two people believe precisely the same thing)
there are passages in the bible where it is written that trivialities of life are not included, because it's obvious that we can't all agree on everything, or we would all be robotic copies of each other. If God told us exactly what to think about every topic, what good is choice, freewill, or our own understanding of thought and logic? We are given the freedom to disagree about some things, and that is fine. there are simply major points to which anyone calling themselves Christian should believe in, or seek another way.

PS; i'd also like to point out that these "unblack" bands are expressing a positive attitude about their beliefs, not tearing down others, such as their opponents are. who then is starting a war? i respect any band promoting a positive attitude, be they Christian, pagan, Muslim, Hindu... i'm after good music. What I don't want is to sit and listen to someone bashing somebody else.

 

[Reclusive Strike]

couple points of clarification:
1. war against other people? i see no reason to simply give up and be destroyed by those who feel my beliefs are threatening to their comfortable living. however, i will not pursue violent means to defend myself. that is the difference. Christianity is not pacifism, its activism in a nonviolent way.

2. on contradiction- (because no two people believe precisely the same thing)
there are passages in the bible where it is written that trivialities of life are not included, because it's obvious that we can't all agree on everything, or we would all be robotic copies of each other. If God told us exactly what to think about every topic, what good is choice, freewill, or our own understanding of thought and logic? We are given the freedom to disagree about some things, and that is fine. there are simply major points to which anyone calling themselves Christian should believe in, or seek another way.

PS; i'd also like to point out that these "unblack" bands are expressing a positive attitude about their beliefs, not tearing down others, such as their opponents are. who then is starting a war? i respect any band promoting a positive attitude, be they Christian, pagan, Muslim, Hindu... i'm after good music. What I don't want is to sit and listen to someone bashing somebody else.

Nice post. I agree for the most part.

For my own preference, I find it much more entertaining, intelligent and appealing when a band writes lyrics on "neutral" subjects. For example Nile's releases (which i know is death metal) or Emperor's 2001 release "Prometheus: The Discipline Of Fire And Demise" (although some people dont consider it a true Black Metal album).

 

[Black Session]

owkey .. i'm surprised at how many convinced christians there are here, i expected at least some more who would agree with me too but it's been a nice discussion over all.

for the record: I also prefer music without too much messages in it, like opeth does for example. I listen to the music for the music then (that's how I like it most). but when there is a distinct message (mostly I don't like that sort of music, but there are some exceptions), then I pay attention to that also.

 

[vampyrouss]

Hey, what do you guys think of this:

Christians can make some pretty sick stuff. Clockwork orange for example, the author was or is very Christian, and yet his hero of the book is a NASTY guy right? He may be a Christian, but he can write about people that aren't.

In the end of the book the main character grows up by his own choice and doesn't want a life of violence anymore. But through the book they try and brainswash him into being "good". The guy who wrote it may be a Christian, but through the book he suggests that we can only ever learn to be "good" by free will and not with force and fear and such.

I think thats a pretty good example of a Christian writing something un-Christian so to speak, but its still got a positive Christian message. Freewill, and such...

I hope there are bands out there doing the same you know. You don't have to actually sing about a God to put across that God's message. An Opeth Clockwork Orange concept album would be amazing too I think!

Just a thought.

 

[Black Session]

free will is not a christian message ...
oh and what to think about how the angel Lucifer (bringer of light) rebels against the tyranny of God and is cast out, after wich he becomes "Satan" (wich means: the opposer). read Vondel's Lucifer for this (unfortunately in Dutch, but perhaps there are good English translations).
(this is getting more and more off-topic )

 

[Black Session]

ow :s ... sorry, I forgot half of what I meant to say with my previous post :s ...
Lucifer rebels because he as an angel doesn't have free will, and humans do ... therefore he rebels against God and is defeated and cast out. (actually Cradle of Filth's Damnation and a Day is based on this story). in his downfall he stops in paradise and corrupts adam and eve ... as revenge ...
in this way Satan is actually not a monster of representative of evil, but simply someone who resists how God created everything and wants to determine everything ... oh well, just another way of looking at it.
again: off topic ... but isn't this great stuff to think and read about? (doesn't matter that everything is purely fictional since there is no god or satan or whatever).

 

[Reclusive Strike]

ow :s ... sorry, I forgot half of what I meant to say with my previous post :s ...
Lucifer rebels because he as an angel doesn't have free will, and humans do ... therefore he rebels against God and is defeated and cast out. (actually Cradle of Filth's Damnation and a Day is based on this story). in his downfall he stops in paradise and corrupts adam and eve ... as revenge ...
in this way Satan is actually not a monster of representative of evil, but simply someone who resists how God created everything and wants to determine everything ... oh well, just another way of looking at it.
again: off topic ... but isn't this great stuff to think and read about? (doesn't matter that everything is purely fictional since there is no god or satan or whatever).

This question isnt for an arguement against you, just wondering if you could explain: How, if Lucifer had no free will, was he able to rebel against God in the first place?

 

[Deadlift]

This disscusion have taken a new beginning. I just wanna make a few things clear. (or unclear)

To talk about Satanism you have to have a definiton of it. I guess people here think of 2 "satanisms"

1. Lavey satanims where no god is present.
2. The satanism "produced" by the bible.

The satanism produced by the bible is the satanism most people refer to here.

The bible has two parts. Old and new testament.

Christian people mainly base their beliefs on the new testament.

Satan has a minor role in the old testament but in the new testament he has
a bigger part and is more developed.


Well, with some background in mind i can only tell you that it`s kind of hard to discuss evil/good with people becasue everybody has diffrent definitons of what evil is, what satan is, what christian black metal is and so on. I mean, most of this stuff exists becasue of the bible.

God was not very kind in the old testament and Satan was not evil at all.

Everybody has their own view on things like this anyway.

Well...didn`t contribute with something new here.
It would be fun if we had anyone that called himself very satanic or christian here.

 

[RDreamer]

Lucifer had free will. That is obvious. A definitive trait of all God's sentient creations is free will. Free will is there to give man (and angels) a choice whether to follow God or not, so nobody can ever say "God forced me to serve Him." God wants friends, the last thing God ever wanted was a puppet. A third of the angels followed Lucifer, so it seems that making poor decisions is not above a creature like that.

Lucifer was an archangel of great pride, basically thought he was hot shit, and tried to usurp God, according to orthodox tradition. God struck him down for his insolence, and from then on Lucifer sought to build his own kingdom by counterfeiting everything God did. God created man for fellowship, Lucifer tried to steal us. God instituted the plan of salvation with Jesus and His virgin birth, Lucifer was behind the sun-god Nimrod's fatherhood of Tammuz. God gives His followers power of the Holy Spirit, Lucifer gives his followers black magic. God gives us Opeth, Lucifer gives us Nickelback. You get the idea.

 

[vampyrouss]

Yeah but my point was, Christians are just as good at writing fiction as anyone else. Its nice to write about your belief's, but I can't see any reason why a Christian Death Metal band couldn't write a Cannibal Corpse style gory song. Cannibal Corpse aren't murderers (as far as I know) they just write fiction that is gory. So in theory a CDM band could do the same right? Without incorporating their beliefs into it in an obvious way.

 

[RDreamer]

God was not very kind in the old testament and Satan was not evil at all.

We have to look deeper to see the truth of this. Having a background in Christian studies (I have a degree in Christian Ministry), this would appear to be true on the outside but upon further look is as far from accurate as can be. It is true that Satan is not a developed character in the Old Testament, but we can see his works.

In the beginnings of the world, God had to be somewhat of a disciplinarian. His goal was to build a nation, a people that could be called His. In order to do this, He had to bring judgment on the world, in particular those who had the bloodline of the Nephalim, the fallen angels, because they were wicked beyond repair. So, He brought a flood and saved Noah, the only pure human.

Eventually the Jews ended up in captivity in Egypt. God had to bring them out to their own land. So, he brought plagues upon Egypt because Pharoah was stubborn and hardened beyond repair.

When the Jews did get their own land, they seldom followed God. Nearly every chapter in Kings and Chronicles shows Israel in some sort of idolatry, whether to Baal or Molech or another foreign idol. So after sending prophet after prophet whom the Jews would not heed, he let them be conquered by Persia.

All of this was done in an attempt to bring people back to Him, to make a people who would be His light in the world. None of it was vindictive or unkind.

But who was behind the Nephalim? Lucifer.

Who was behind the kingdom of Egypt and its gods? Lucifer.

Who was behind Baal and Molech? Lucifer.


So while we never see Lucifer in his Lair of Evil wringing his hands gleefully (in fact the only time we do see him is in the book of Job, where he is petitioning God to persecute an innocent man), we do see that God continually has to deal with his works.

 

[Deadlift]

We have to look deeper to see the truth of this. Having a background in Christian studies (I have a degree in Christian Ministry), this would appear to be true on the outside but upon further look is as far from accurate as can be. It is true that Satan is not a developed character in the Old Testament, but we can see his works.

In the beginnings of the world, God had to be somewhat of a disciplinarian. His goal was to build a nation, a people that could be called His. In order to do this, He had to bring judgment on the world, in particular those who had the bloodline of the Nephalim, the fallen angels, because they were wicked beyond repair. So, He brought a flood and saved Noah, the only pure human.

Eventually the Jews ended up in captivity in Egypt. God had to bring them out to their own land. So, he brought plagues upon Egypt because Pharoah was stubborn and hardened beyond repair.

When the Jews did get their own land, they seldom followed God. Nearly every chapter in Kings and Chronicles shows Israel in some sort of idolatry, whether to Baal or Molech or another foreign idol. So after sending prophet after prophet whom the Jews would not heed, he let them be conquered by Persia.

All of this was done in an attempt to bring people back to Him, to make a people who would be His light in the world. None of it was vindictive or unkind.

But who was behind the Nephalim? Lucifer.

Who was behind the kingdom of Egypt and its gods? Lucifer.

Who was behind Baal and Molech? Lucifer.


So while we never see Lucifer in his Lair of Evil wringing his hands gleefully (in fact the only time we do see him is in the book of Job, where he is petitioning God to persecute an innocent man), we do see that God continually has to deal with his works.

Who created Lucifer according to the bible?

And....

A few parts where god isn`t that nice and definitely can`t be called pure good.

5 book of Moses
7:1-2 Encourages massmurder
7:4 To serve anohter god "God" will destroy you

2 book of Moses
17:8ff god help moses to kill
17:14 god tells mosdes he will help him to erase the memory of the..people (don`T know the English name)

1 book of Samuel 15:3 God says to king Saul: Don`t give mercy to anyone...kill everybody, men, woman, children, babies,animals.

Thers`s loads of more. But this shows that god wasn`t very kind and it sure as hell don`t show us goodness.

 

[EveOfDarkness]

ok guys, as much as i love God and love a good debate about religion, this isnt the time or place to do it. We've strayed off topic and I have a feeling that things could get ugly if we keep going this route. We should go back to talking about religion in music guys. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Black Session]

hmm, I like to think that good music comes more from Lucifer (in a metaphoric way again, since THEY DON'T EXIST), so Opeth comes from Lucifer ... btw, on the European tour Mikael often asked if the audience liked EVIL music (with of course sarcasm and humor), does he do this in America since so many of you are so damn christian :s ...

@RDreamer: first of all, they weren't conquered by Persia, but by the Assyrians first, and then by the Babylonians (Nebuchadnezzar II) and where set free again by Cyrus the Great of Persia then ... if we're talking history, it has to be correct
and second of all, what troubles me is this: I love this kind of stuff, but when you and others here talk about it, it's because you actually belief all of it as historical truth :s ... really dangerous ... and this is one of my main objections to modern day christianity ...
again btw, those stories in the bible aren't mostly even original ... mere copies with slight alterations of other stories, wich were created by those people who you claim worship gods that were actually satan ...
ERGO: the stories in the bible derive from heathen and thus satanic stories ....

I swear this is my last post here, because I agree with EveOfDarkness on this one, but I do hope that at least some will think this through ... when you actually know history and mythologies and the bible and are a little bit sceptic at least, then you soon see how many flaws there are in the way christians think about it ....