wtf...Extol is christian death metal?!

[Kenneth R.]

i can assure you Black Session, my belief has nothing to do with my nationality. I am ony American by birth, which I had no control over. In nearly every other aspect I despise the country and everything its current society stands for.

and FYI: as an American, I can assure you firsthand that the US is not more religious, and if anything, is one of the least religious countries in the Western world. I say this because the mainstream "religion" most Americans adhere to is not belief at all, but merely a fad, a trend, going through the motions half-assed without even wondering why. Further, these same people indulge in all sorts of vices. Look at Hollywood. Look at the fanatical patriotism and the hate directed at foreign nations. Is this consistent with Christianity? I think not. You're right that they appear more religous than most, and will of course strongly deny otherwise, but they are fooling themselves.

 

[vampyrouss]

Christian Death Metal anyone? hehe, but I like this conversation and where its going, even if it is off topic!

 

[Kenneth R.]

Pantokrator is quite good.

 

[soundave]

Maybe I mentioned this earlier (in the previous incarnation of this thread), but even though not necessarily DM, Believer is pretty cool.

 

[Black Session]

@ silentsong: I actually totally agree with you ... it's the main thing that bothers me with the extreme fundamentalistic christianity we can see in the USA, that it is actually totally contradictory to christianity in most ways ... and indeed, I consider it a trend also, and an instrument used in politics, a means of keeping people stupid sometimes even, a form of brain washing.
of course there are others also, but we can't deny that ignorance is hughly present in the USA (and more and more also in Europe to my big regret ...)

 

[EveOfDarkness]

Ok guys i just found out some amazing Christian metal in the 'black metal style':

Vardøger - Whitefrozen
Vaakevandring - Vaakevandring

great stuff, very folk and just str8 up awesome.

I also got Schaliach's cd "Sonrise" which was before Ole Børud joined Extol, he had his own band with him doing all instruments and the singer of Vardøger doing vocals. You can definitely tell how he influenced Extol. Great melodic death/doom metal. Of course, very uplifting and thought provoking lyrics as well.

@Black Session: like i said im sorry you see Christianity at its lowest, most transparent form. True christianity, to reply to a statement you made earlier, to me is not an easy way out at all. If anything it should be harder, because it requires that you fight and live against your natural will and instincts Any true christian can tell you the same thing. Christianity is directly in conflict to natural humanity. And in today's world, its becoming increasingly harder to have faith in a God that is invisible, at least physically, when the world around that person tells them that religion isnt important anymore. No my friend, christianity, at its truest form, is definitely not the easy way out of anything. It is a very difficult but, as we believe, ultimately rewarding path of life.

 

[Kenneth R.]

BlackSession: I agree, but we must also remember that there are those like me who are not among them. The things they do and say makes me ashamed to call myself American, and angry that they call themselves Christian.

EoD: I agree, excellent bands!

 

[vampyrouss]

Those passive Christians aren't alone though, think of all the kids that turn "Satanist" over night... probably only 5% of those teens stick at it and take it seriously, or less, and its a pretty cool thing to be a muslim at the moment too, well, you hear about it more at the moment at least, and not to mention the athiest by default, those who just don't believe in any other religion. All beliefs and non beliefs have those who are just passers through.

America and England were largely Christian by default and some people just hang on to their religion because its all they know, even if they don't believe it themselves, and thats sad I think.

 

[Julian Zembrowski]

Yes it's sad your right when people can't stick to their own spiritualistic creativity.

I wish I was muslim, but then again this forum would get too explosive.
....No pun intended.

 

[Black Session]

@EveofDarkness: actually you said what is my main objection against christianity, but you see that as positive ... the fact that christianity is indeed a denial of our natural behaviour. and i see satanism as a metaphorical kind of way to oppose to this, object against a religion wich tries to give everyone a feeling of guilt simply for feeling certain things. the main (even only) aspect in satanism is: don't deny your natural identity ...
I really can not accept something that tells me it is wrong to feel certain emotions (e.g. sexuality) or that I have to deny everything that feels good and is fun ... and actually I can not understand how someone can believe in something like this but hey, as long as you don't bother me with it (wich is also an important thing in satanism: respect for everyone and everything on the one condition that they respect you and let you be, wich then christianity mostly hasn't done).

well, i was kind of surprised to read you say it actually because mostly when i say that this is my main objection against christianity, i get mad responses that it's not true ... but of course it is
good luck with it ...
I also made a paradoxical conclusion about this subject: if you are right in your way of life, then I would become aware of this when i die, but hate it very much and be so dissapointed. but if i am right then you will still die believing you are, and you would never even realize since you simply will not exist any more.
but I have made a decision in my life that I honor knowledge more than a (for me) false feeling of happiness through illusions.


@ others: well, I think most people don't really care about stuff like this ... and when they "believe" something it is for other reason (fitting in, rebelling, fashion, ...). every one still wants to fit in with a group ... even we we all do at some level (but the difference is most people adjust themselves to fit in, while we, I hope, try to find people who share same ideas or interests wich we founded ourselves )

 

[Kenneth R.]

but dude... it's not about denying natural instincts. denying sexuality would mean we go extinct as a species! denying violence would mean we cannot defend ourselves. denying these things isn't the goal - it's controlling them. knowing when to fight and when not to, when to fuck and when not to. it's principles and a sense of what is "right" and what is not. of course you may have a different set of "right" than me. Christianity does call for respect of others. "Love thy neighbor" yea? We are to respect each others different opinions and ways of life, even if we disagree.

as opposed to lavey satanism, in which i do recall a major tenet was "if someone continues to bother you, use force on them." there was also "indulge in sex if it suits you." where in this does it account for the other person's feelings? or consequences? or the possibilities of pregnancy, disease, or the law? you're free to give it a go if you wish, but remember that in a large part of Africa they've tried this out, and they're sadly dying of AIDs, or supporting 9 children on no money. I don't see the "satanist" ideal as a successful society in any perspective, it's selfish and unsupportive of future consequences.

 

[Hügelgräber]

To the instincts: I saw a documentary film about evangelicans yesterday. They say it is sin just to desire another person that you are not married with, even if it happens on a mental way only. Well, if I desire some girl, i can't change it. I don't even want to change it

Africa: The only reason why Africa got this AIDS epidemic and not us is the fact, that they did not know about safer-sex, and most still don't as far as I know, intensified by high birth rates. "Indulge in sex if it suits you" is the way most people think around here. If there was no anti-baby-pill and condoms, we would have the same birth-rates as in Africa.

This oversexualized society, that i critizise too, is a result of this pharmacy.

 

[Black Session]

oh comon ... it sais that if you want to do something, and this doesn't disrespect someone else, then you can do whatever you want ...
so if people want to fuck around with people who also want to fuck around, let them be ...
and btw, what you are saying about africa! the reason AIDS is such a problem there is not because they believe in free love or stuff! ... actually, did you know that the catholic church and a lot of missionaries and nuns are teaching people in africa NOT to use a condom because that increases the chance of AIDS ... so oops, yes again, a christian imperialistic organization, arguing for abstinence (and thus denying natural urges) causes again so many problems ...

or did you know that the missionary position was promoted by christians (and missionaries) because this gives the least satisfaction and is the most unconfortable ... and of course this has to be in a marriage and ONLY for the purpose of having children, because we wouldn't want anyone to enjoy it wouldn't we ..
and thus, it's denying that sexuality means a lot more in a relationship than having children for the human species ... and it's denying that humans have strong needs for fysical contact. by denying this, and disallowing it, you create messed-up minds ...
trust me, the most extreme sexual outbursts exist where religion "controls" (read) forbid most of it ... (e.g. Victorian England, USA today, ...)

I know nowadays lots of you aren't this rigid about it of course, but still, christianity is about denying a lot of natural urges and feelings ... controlling them is just another way to say that, a eufimism ...

 

[Black Session]

@Hügelgräber: anti-conception is by no means the reason for "oversexuality" .... oh well, if you want to believe that ....
there were (and still are some) a lot of societies without anti-conception, and still without those high birth rates or "oversexuality". it's far more complex.

 

[Hügelgräber]

... actually, did you know that the catholic church and a lot of missionaries and nuns are teaching people in africa NOT to use a condom because that increases the chance of AIDS ... so oops, yes again, a christian imperialistic organization, arguing for abstinence (and thus denying natural urges) causes again so many problems ...

I also heard about this, but I can not estimate if the missionaries really had a key influence in this cruel development.

@Hügelgräber: anti-conception is by no means the reason for "oversexuality" .... oh well, if you want to believe that ....
there were (and still are some) a lot of societies without anti-conception, and still without those high birth rates or "oversexuality". it's far more complex.

Then explain this complexity...

Our western world is the only society where you can't look somewhere without looking at some half-naked girl. Of course this is not only the effect of contraception. I just wanted to point it out. The freedom of sexuality developed itself in the entire 19th century until this excessive result.
Without contraception, 14 year old girls would not have sex so regularly as today. But they do, because it is a omnipresent thing, and there are no consequences to face.

 

[Black Session]

there are still consequences ...
well, our society has evolved to this stage because of several (coincidential) evolutions ... and it is not like these are oh so negative ...
lots of places in the world where families live onder 1 roof (as did we until a century ago or so, at least most of society). and did you ever consider how the parents made love then with all the children and relatives also living there ...
and representation of nudity and sexuality has been, and still is in many places, far less shocking as it is in our society. but of course, children here are still raised with certain "values" that originated in a puritan society ... not adapted anymore ... this leads to certain outbursts.
and also, lots of teenagers are so shallow these days (again the way we raise them), and are often bored ... well tell me, what is fun, forbidden, mysterious and cheap ........... yes, sex ...

and of course you could write books about it (there are a lot), but these are some short things I consider important for this discussion.

oh and again I'll try not to post here anymore, it's too adictive and I think I've said everything I wanted to say here .... sorry vampyrouss but for me this thread is dead again (I have too much work for my studies to spend so much time here )

 

[vampyrouss]

I haven't been able to read this thread today!! Lots of long posts, looks interesting! I'll definatly catch up on everything later!

 

[Hügelgräber]

there are still consequences ...

What consequences do you mean ?

well, our society has evolved to this stage because of several (coincidential) evolutions ... and it is not like these are oh so negative ...

Agreed. Now I don't know more than before.

and representation of nudity and sexuality has been, and still is in many places, far less shocking as it is in our society. but of course, children here are still raised with certain "values" that originated in a puritan society ... not adapted anymore ... this leads to certain outbursts.

But most of those kids that I know of really do not have a puritan education. :Smug: But to be honest, it doesnt bother me that much than it could seem from my posts.

oh and again I'll try not to post here anymore, it's too adictive and I think I've said everything I wanted to say here .... sorry vampyrouss but for me this thread is dead again (I have too much work for my studies to spend so much time here )

Deserter !

 

[Kenneth R.]

BlackSession either you misunderstood me or you're trying to subvert my words.

con·trol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-trl)
tr.v. con·trolled, con·trol·ling, con·trols
To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct. See Synonyms at conduct.
To adjust to a requirement; regulate: controlled trading on the stock market; controls the flow of water.
To hold in restraint; check: struggled to control my temper.

de·ny ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-n)
tr.v. de·nied, de·ny·ing, de·nies
To declare untrue; contradict.
To refuse to believe; reject.
To refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disavow.

If you still question the difference, let me know. Christianity is not about denying natural impulses, it's about being mature about them. Making smart decisions when possible.

If you feel Satanism is the way to go, have a blast. I'm sure you'll find sooner or later the novelty of acting impulsively loses its viability when either one of your choices leads to an unforseen negative consequence, or you just get bored of never having to think. My comments above were in regard, again, to society. A society adhering to Christianity would survive a great deal longer than one adhering to Satanism. Of course, in this world, we have neither one, though current popular society leans more towards impulsiveness. I find it childish.

 

[vampyrouss]

Sometimes I think I am a Christian without even knowing it!!
I just live a lifestyle I want to, and people are always asking me, "Is it because of your religion..." or whatever. I don't feel repressed or anything, I am just fine living the way I do and am fine with others living the way they choose to with whatever beliefs they choose to live by. I think I am a "better" Christian than most of those Christian-By-Default guys and I don't even believe in a God.

I can't think of anything else to add to the last couple posts, they were too good in my opinion and I enjoyed reading, but I wouldn't want to spoil it by repeating what you guys already said, so sorry if I seem really irrelevant in this post!!