2008 Political debate thread

[Ascension]

Hey Ascension, guess what? America is the same. Americans are just afraid to face it. They're beaten down and conditioned to think democracy (as if we really even have that) is the best, etc.

Not the Americans l know...none have ever called me master even though l had authority over them lol. They have called me asshole though. No Russian l met would have dared do that.

You mean democracy isn't the best? Communism/Socialism is better?

 

[ABQShredHead]

Fascism FTW!

 

[razoredge]

...and interference of the US in all of their affairs.

What are we talking about here, currently or back in the 50's ?

and why are we ignoring the things that created such actions ?

 

[Kenneth R.]

You're right. We shouldn't ignore the fact that we armed the so-called terrorists and trained them because we feared Communism. Ascension/Mark: Democracy is great if you're on the Bill Gates, Donald Trump end of things. It's great if you can pay off all the politicians you need, and it's great if you don't give a damn about everybody else. That is, democracy as it is in the US. Our democracy is no more a democracy than China is communist. Furthermore, in almost every political way, the US gov has behaved exactly like Russia does since Gorbachev left.

 

[razoredge]

Are you searching for a pretty picture of communism ? because I dont know where to point you.

It was either us or Russia, these other countries were playing the game and we needed to do something. Times were different back then, no one, myself included can pretend to sit and imagine how we would respond to anything political at the end of WWII. With the whole process and course of events that was WWII imbeded in our recent memories.

 

[ABQShredHead]

Yes, the '50's into the '90's were incredibly different times than they are today. Nuclear warfare was always in the back of our minds, even as high schoolers. So, to use hindsight to say we made a mistake by ensuring the Soviet Union did not overtake the largest oil supply in the world by arming the Afghans and others throughout the region would be quite shortsighted, indeed. If hindsight can be shortsighted...

 

[Kenneth R.]

You know, did you read my WWII post? "It's us or the communists!" was exactly how the fascists, that Mark so lovingly laughs at were given power in the first place.

There is no example of successful, utopian communism in the world because humanity has a selfish-streak. There is similarly no example of perfect democracy either. This is the kettle calling the pot black. The only reason there's ANY resistence to what I am saying is, that as Americans, you are bombarded from an early age to think democracy = awesome, america = awesome, america = democracy.

 

[ABQShredHead]

america = awesome

I don't think you've ever said anything more true, Ken. At least to my memory on this forum.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

Exactly...doing what the UN should have done years ago...ousting an evil individual & putting down terrorists. The UN & NATO are a joke. There has to be people willing to do the jobs everybody else is scared of doing...and not afraid to take shit for it.

+1,000,000,000

 

[Kenneth R.]

I don't think you've ever said anything more true, Ken. At least to my memory on this forum.

Thanks for proving my point dude.

 

[Ascension]

Our democracy is no more a democracy than China is communist.

Oh...we're definitely a democracy. Our only problem is the class (or lack thereof) of representatives of our government that we vote in. And, the fucked up voter apathy we have in the US. We have a president with a low approval rating & a lame ass congress with even less. Why? It's our fault...we voted them in or not depending on which end of the voting situation you fall in. Did you vote to insure your tax breaks continued...or to make sure your entitlements (welfare) continued? But we have a vote...it should be used.

Furthermore, in almost every political way, the US gov has behaved exactly like Russia does since Gorbachev left.

Wrong. As noted above...we vote our President & representatives in...they are not hand picked & "appointed".

 

[razoredge]

I think both have serious flaws but I dont see it as close as the pot calling the kettle black. In fact isnt it more of a comparision between faults of capitalism and communism and totalitarian against democracy ?

I dont know what you are talking about regarding facists, I just more relate to the realities of events leading to WWII and the aftermath. Russia seemed to have a inappropriate reaction after the shutting down of the Nazi. The world should have been happy the BS was over but here was Russia with their lips all puffed out and pouty, going to draw lines, put up fence and build a wall. There would be no people gonna run around acting happy as far as they were concerned and could control. Are you denying they were very repressive ? if not down right inhumain ? That country was what ? Something like 30-40 years behind us in development and acceptence of individualism. Didnt they perform a bunch of mass civilian slaughters over the years too ? Good ice skaters because you beat them over the head everyday and tell them they suck somehow isnt enough to lean me toward their way of thinking.

I'm looking Ken but I cant even find the picture your looking at. What am I missing ?

 

[ABQShredHead]

I proved nothing of your point, Ken. I merely sound-bited you to fit my story. Much like our media. America is awesome, in my notebook. I'm sure your notebook is full of contradictions to mine, but my notebook tells me that is a true statement as I parsed it.

Heck, the events ongoing in China right now should be enough to prove the good far outweighs the bad in this country. Under a communist regime, a forum such as this would not exist.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Wrong. As noted above...we vote our President & representatives in...they are not hand picked & "appointed".

I point you to the electoral college, the superdelagates, presidential cabinet, justices, corporate payoffs, how many more shall I point you to?

How the system is SUPPOSED to work makes democracy the best possible system. How communism, socialism, fascism... are SUPPOSED to work, make them all (yes, even fascism) reasonable forms of government. The human factor, however, ensures that none of these will ever work like they are supposed to. Given that, democracy is the best option. However, our version of democracy is none superior to other countries' constitutional monarchies, communist states, etcetera. I'm sure you'll simply make another post denying this, further confirming all I've said.

Mark... the irony is just too thick. Have you been watching the Olympics? Did you vote for the patriot act? How about our presidental approval rating, as your compatriot mentioned. What about our awesome economy? Our awesome education? Our awesome foreign standing, and resources?

 

[Swabs]

Hey don't ya'll be dissing the ol' constitutional monarchy now

 

[ABQShredHead]

I watch the Olympics when time affords it. I don't have much spare time to plunk myself in front of the TV these days. Or the Go board, for that matter. Between kids and work, I'm pretty well stocked on my time resources.

I don't have a seat in Congress, Ken. I don't see how I could vote for the Patriot Act. But, to that point, I value protection from cowardly attacks on civilians, and support the Patriot Act. I don't feel it violates any of my civil liberties.

The President's approval rating is dictated by one primary factor, the war in Iraq, which is fully misrepresented by the media and swallowed blindly by those watching said media. Not too many people are commenting on the even lower Congressional approval rating. In two years, the Dems have done little to bring the changes they promised. And, no, it is not because of our President.

Our economy is dragged down by blind spending from individuals. We as Americans have suddenly developed an entitlement to buy stuff, regardless of our abilities to pay for it. I had a deep conversation with my wife five years ago regarding the various new mortgages being pitched by our lenders - the results have been very dire indeed, as I foresaw in our conversations. Throw away your credit cards, and don't spend money till you've earned it. And don't blame your spending on the flippin' government.

On the education front, I will point directly to the liberal, post-modern movement pushing us away from our own American heritage, and again a lack of accountability from parents. Schools are a place for our children to learn reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic. Schools do not exist to raise our children. Parents must raise their children. Unfortunately, parents have outsourced this job all too often, and we are left with shattered youth with little learned responsibility and accountability.

I'll give you the foreign standing though. But, at the same time, I think we have plenty to take care of on our own shores as well.

 

[razoredge]

I dont watch the news nor read the paper, I dont approve of us still being in Iraq. I bet nearly the first words off anybodies lips when they knew we were going to Iraq was "I hope this doesnt turn into another Vietnam" meaning drag on for years and years as nothing gets accomplished. Well guess what, here we are.

While you are half correct about blind spending being a problem it is exactly what our economists wanted and that DOES include our government. We have been spoon fed this consumerism for decades. Even goes back over a century, so its well implanted and passed on for many generations to the point it has become. The $600 economy stimulas checks are proof that this is how our governments economic mentality works. Then to further sadden the entire story, its the truth, that if people dont spend money, other people dont have work. We are now bordering the area where capitalism and free market fails and this is a area our government is very involved in.

What happened during the savings and loan crisis of the 80's ? I wasnt that close or caring and have long since forgot what I did obsorb. The one thing I remember was that after the fact, no one could get a loan for anymore than 1/3 or their net income. In order to buy a house you needed to put 1/3 down. Now how in the hell did we get from that to banks writing mortages for $450,000 houses that were only worth $120,000 a decade earlier where few could get loans or accumulate the $40,000 down payment ? Now at $300,000 to $500,000 are you telling me that these people put $100,000 to $165,000 down on houses ? Or that their incomes actually proved they could pay these things off in their lifetime... not to mention that it was made perfectly clear sometime in the 90's that everyone could forget about job and future ever being written in the same sentence again. "Jobs only last 6-10 years"... "you can count on changing jobs 5-6 times in your life"... "We are the new CEO's changing the way "America" does business"... "Credit ! Its how we do things today" Well guess what... here we are.

Buying a car went from being about the price of the car... a person looking at it for its outright value... to... talking payments "how much can you afford a month" well I dont care what I can afford a month, the thing is worth _ _ _ _ and that is IT ! But NO, "that is not how we do things today" All in the name of free market capitalism and our governments interest in stimulating the economy so everyone would put their shades on and not be able to see the forest through the trees. False economy but hey, it looked good on PAPER and the population was falling for it.

"Just like the Pied Piper
led Rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to the Symphony ...
Of Destruction"

Education, yes I agree in part with ABQ but I know damn well our stats are brought to the level they are due to our immigration problem and urban problems and in many cases our rural problem, all of which our government has its finger prints all over as well.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Hey don't ya'll be dissing the ol' constitutional monarchy now

well, you can have your downtown Charge and you can have your TV license, but overall I'd say the UK is a step up. Might have to talk to the powers that be about all the video cameras though.

Mark, yeah it's ultimately the citizens who decide the quality of this country. We've put idiots in power, and those idiots are now ensuring that we grow up stupid and vote for more idiots, spend more (ever notice how accounting/credit is not taught in schools in any way?) and the government allows and occasionally even promotes credit "deals" to get people to buy, in an unusual attempt to jumpstart the economy. As for the patriot act, I believe the relevant phrase is "those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither." Name the founding father? I really hate to bring up two saws in one paragraph, given that I really dislike them, but as they are so unavoidably perfect, I also present "who will guard the guards?"

 

[razoredge]

our vote means nothing, politics are all the same, its just a big game and they are the only pieces on the board, so in essence we are only choosing our color, but the game is still played the same

Im sitting here trying to think if during the course of my life any serious changes were made. Outside of these trade agreements I cant think of any. Same campaign topics every year, same ol problems knocking at the back door

 

[ABQShredHead]

Would you not call bringing down the Berlin Wall a "serious change" during your life, razor (my apologies for my disgusting inability to remember your name).

But, what if we take a look at things from another perspective outside our own? We do know that for a business to grow, said business requires money, correct? How does that company acquire that money? Unless it is a start-up by a very wealthy person who can fund it him/herself, the business requires capital investments to grow and loans to cover operational expenses until revenues can be generated. I'm sure everybody is familiar with that scenario.

So, what has happened in the car industry? Unions have driven salaries through the roof. Is it truly necessary to pay $80,000 a year for one person to stand in a line and drive the same rivet into the same hole of every car passing in front of him/her? And the amounts put into this person's health care and retirement benefits further drive the operational costs of the company. The company must increase the costs to the consumer to drive the revenues required to pay the operational costs of the business.

Foreign automakers do not have these same operational costs. Workers are paid what they are worth for the work they do. These automakers do face import tariffs from our government, however, to ensure they are not able to undersell American automakers in the US market. These tariffs ensure American autoworkers can continue working for their American companies. However, these American companies are crumbling now, as they are unable to keep up with sales trends and foreign innovations and designs.

I'm not necessarily criticizing unions. I feel they had a place in our history long ago when workers were repressed, had no representation, and were severely taken advantage of. I don't see that in the workplace today. In fact, myriad labor laws now exist to ensure workers are not taken advantage of, yadda yadda. Unions these days are little more than money-making schemes for the bosses.

So, now we can look at housing costs. California went wild when the tech industry built Silicon Valley. With the amount of revenues and profits turned in this sector, and the subsequent pay for the contributors, these workers had plenty of money to spend, albeit unwisely. Timely investments in company stocks made instant millionaires. I recall Yahoo's IPO in '90's and how millionaires were made in less than a day's time.

With people buying houses regardless of the sums required, and building new homes with ridiculous amenities, housing prices naturally increased - I'm not saying values per se, since a home's value is dictated by how much somebody is willing to pay for it. And then we're in the place we're in - combine with my earlier statements that people are not digging into how the mortgage system works sky-high housing prices and you're left with a huge mess that for the life of me I can pin to nobody but the people who put themselves in the mess.