2008 Political debate thread

[razoredge]

I was talking about change to the same ol same ol here in the US with our government

Here we go on the Unions, well the COE's of GM make 4 million a year and amount to little more than the rivet.

Budget, exec and R&D people at the US automotive plants were very complacient regarding technology advancement and quality and that is what destroyed the US auto industry, we have been at least 2-3 steps behind the Japanese since the mid 70's. Your in a department I know quite a bit about.

Yes there are problems with Unions but organized labor by its own is not the problem. Lack of it today is why there is a larger seperation of the tax brackets than ever. With most of the labor force not being any further or actually behind than they were in 1990. Which is now 18 years incidently.

I have no problem with investment, I have serious problems with trading. I have serious problems with a bunch of nut jobs getting up every morning and heading to Wall Street in effort to make a big splash for the day. Its the only place in the world where life seems to work that way.

You want to tell me what we are worth, the American work force !!!!! You want to compare me to a frickin China man ? A Mexican ? Perhaps a examination of your worth is in order. You just supported the economic stature of the populations within the countries you will use by same example when you want to start talking about how bad they have it and how good we as Americans have it. Stop flip floppin, the spred between who has the money and who doesnt is even wider in those countries, but guess what I was born and raised in America and Im tired of see us go backwards as white collars come up with more reasons why the money should go to them not the work force.

Yeah, we headed in a BAD area here, I might like it, not sure the moderators will though....

Housing feel victim to the capitalistic example of supply and demand and a perfectly willing credit system with the government standing complaciently at the side line. Blaming people for natural born optimism at starting their new life with no other options for doing so is just blind. You either pay rediculous high rent where you cant save money or you pay rediculous high mortage and dream that you are actually working toward something that is YOURS.

 

[ABQShredHead]

I'm not quite sure what you're huffy about. I wasn't comparing you to a "China man" or a "Mexican". I've examined my worth, both present and future. I feel my future worth is quite higher than my present worth, if I strive to better myself in key areas. I'm working on that. I will indeed draw more in the years to come. I will make sure of it. I will not sit idly by to let my own future escape me. I will not overextend myself in the housing market simply to keep up with the Joneses. I have my own dreams of what my life will be like in five and ten years, and I am setting forth to reach those dreams.

Perhaps, rather than worrying about the separation of the tax brackets, you can take a moment to realize the ever-increasing number of self-made millionaires in our country, as well as around the globe, and maybe research how they are getting there. I don't think a union mentality got them there. It is about doing what you love and what you are passionate about. Doing something where you don't care how much money you are being paid to show up to work everyday. If being a member of the "labor force" is where you wish to be, then work to be best in class and stand apart. To me, the union mentality is contrary to this personal growth. And as a member of said "labor force", you do need to realize where your competition lies - exactly what you compared yourself to. Competent personnel who will do the work (one may argue the quality of the work) at a fraction of the cost for which you will do the work.

 

[razoredge]

So one moves to China or Mexico to see how they survive on those kinds of wages ? Look into their housing market, diet and quality of life ? Sorry man, small picture

 

[Ascension]

I point you to the electoral college, the superdelagates, presidential cabinet, justices, corporate payoffs, how many more shall I point you to?

Electoral college = elected
Superdelegates = elected
presidental cabinet, justices = placed by president/congress who is elected
corporate payoffs = goes back to my statement of lack of class of the individuals we vote in & voter apathy. But those that accept payoffs from lobbyists/special interests are elected.

Again, l don't see the system (democracy)as flawed...but the individuals within it are as well as those that allow it (voters or those that don't). The citizenship has some ownership in what's wrong here.

 

[razoredge]

I cant see that, what are the choices ? Politician A... or Politician B, always bearing in mind that we are dealing with politicians now, not leaders, its a profession - "politician" and its all about feeding a nice line of dreams to the right target audiences so you can get elected, not unlike the mentality of a used car saleman. Then you have to realize that for what ever reason, it takes great sums of money to get elected and who puts up this money and what do they expect in return. I dont think its the average Joe and Jane that gives them their money.

Theres many problems here and not a single effort has been made to change it in my life thus far.

 

[ABQShredHead]

So one moves to China or Mexico to see how they survive on those kinds of wages ? Look into their housing market, diet and quality of life ? Sorry man, small picture

Or one saves a ton of money through hard work, moves to Mexico, and live like a king? Why concern oneself simply with wages? I would point to that megalomania as "small picture".

 

[razoredge]

Very evasive of everything I placed on the table, but whats to expect. I am well aware of the few small points of your view however but they are disconnected to what I was pointing out. Simply not worth it to expect college grads to be able to see anything but what they choose.

 

[Meedleyx10]

You're bitter. We get it.

 

[noble savage]

I don't understand what your problem is with people who decide to attend college, Razor. You seem to take it as a personal offense any time someone (Meedley, Ken and I it seems lately) mention matters, like science, and spin it to claim us as 'elitists' or something. Like the first post on the thread I created - about the misuse of grammar. I was clearly NOT referring to you or anything you have ever typed, but you somehow managed to distort and throw it back at me as if I had something against you specifically, which I clearly don't.

Just take a deep breath and remember that it's only the internets. I know you are an intelligent person from what you have posted, you have nothing to prove.

 

[Ascension]

I cant see that, what are the choices ? Politician A... or Politician B, always bearing in mind that we are dealing with politicians now, not leaders, its a profession - "politician" and its all about feeding a nice line of dreams to the right target audiences so you can get elected, not unlike the mentality of a used car saleman. Then you have to realize that for what ever reason, it takes great sums of money to get elected and who puts up this money and what do they expect in return. I dont think its the average Joe and Jane that gives them their money.

Theres many problems here and not a single effort has been made to change it in my life thus far.

Again, l've mentioned the lack of class or integrity involved with the people we have running for office...we don't have to vote for them...regardless of the campaigning & use of media paid for by contributions to get their face out there. As far as the "sums of money" goes, nobody has paid me for my vote. The fact is...this country does not have enough people that give a shit & get out to vote even though it affects them. It's a minority that puts people in office. Until the people rise up & use their vote to make a change...there will be no change. Simple as that.

 

[razoredge]

small focus guys, I can see all sides but dont expect those fallen under the entitlement of "degree" to understand all. Put it this way it is a piece of paper like the one that says "marrage licence". Then you also dont understand the changes that took place during the past 30 years when it mattered less if you had a "degree" and now it seems to be a priority that those without are thought to be fish food... sweet. Of course when it comes to other matters of humanity you jump on the compassion band wagon and dont want to hear no negative stuff about those people. You dont get it and wont get it. For instance right now you are probably thinking Im calling for compassion for regular people because you heard the word used pertaining to something else and it was right there in writting so you just cant process beyond it.

Meeds "I get it your bitter", yup, you get half of it, the rest would have to be written out in properly worded sentences covering each and every little detail, in the proper order so you wouldnt get lost. A entire text book on the job and economic status of such jobs including whats involved, availability, various inflation comparisions against wage increases, ect. ect. If done right and of course "correctly" it might sink in. But chances are in the end you would just turn your head and say... eh, you all got what you deserved, you were a bunch of retards anyhow, its only right you have been brought to compete with immigrants and had the rest of your jobs off shored, so what - you have to live in America, we dont want you here anyhow, go to Mexico, go to China.

I've heard it all and expect it

I dont have the stats but I bet less that 30% of my grandfathers generation had "degrees", less than half my fathers generation had "degrees" and possibly less than half of my generation had "degrees", amazing we survived no ? Today find a job (thats worth anything), damn near no matter how simplistic that does not require a "degree". You bet Im bitter but my concern goes far beyond that all the way to the attitude involved. So I give it right back

 

[razoredge]

Again, l've mentioned the lack of class or integrity involved with the people we have running for office...we don't have to vote for them...regardless of the campaigning & use of media paid for by contributions to get their face out there. As far as the "sums of money" goes, nobody has paid me for my vote. The fact is...this country does not have enough people that give a shit & get out to vote even though it affects them. It's a minority that puts people in office. Until the people rise up & use their vote to make a change...there will be no change. Simple as that.

Vote for what though? I should say [palmplant] right now. Again you are given model A and model B, both the same, different face. I wasnt talking about buying votes for election with money. Geeze, twilight zone setting in, sorry no insult but I cant explain my point any better than I have, so I guess I'll just concede... its all the peoples fault, everyone get out and vote for buttcake A or buttcake B it will make a difference. Our government is NOT one big machine that cant be stopped, so please vote.......

 

[Kenneth R.]

Electoral college = elected
Superdelegates = elected
presidental cabinet, justices = placed by president/congress who is elected
corporate payoffs = goes back to my statement of lack of class of the individuals we vote in & voter apathy. But those that accept payoffs from lobbyists/special interests are elected.

Again, l don't see the system (democracy)as flawed...but the individuals within it are as well as those that allow it (voters or those that don't). The citizenship has some ownership in what's wrong here.

Of course I agree. I wouldn't say some ownership, we have ALL the ownership of this issue. If you scroll up, you'll see I said that Ideal democracy, Ideal communism, etcetra, are fairly good ideas. In practice, all of them have serious drawbacks, of which democracy has the least. However, our example of democracy is not even as good as some other countries' imperfect examples, thus I noted that while you and others may view America as a bastion of awesomeness and great freedom, I find that view to be narrow given the state of living in other parts of the world.

 

[Ascension]

Of course I agree. I wouldn't say some ownership, we have ALL the ownership of this issue.

l couldn't agree more.

I find that view to be narrow given the state of living in other parts of the world.

l lived in Russia...you don't want to live in that part of the world believe me. When you've seen how bad it could be...and Russia isn't nearly as bad as some...you have a different appreciation for America.

Vote for what though? I should say [palmplant] right now. Again you are given model A and model B, both the same, different face. I wasnt talking about buying votes for election with money. Geeze, twilight zone setting in, sorry no insult but I cant explain my point any better than I have, so I guess I'll just concede... its all the peoples fault, everyone get out and vote for buttcake A or buttcake B it will make a difference. Our government is NOT one big machine that cant be stopped, so please vote.......

Ahh but that's where you're wrong. There are independent candidates out there. You're the one fooled into believing the 2 party system is the only way to go apparently. Do a little research & you'll find alternatives. If only the majority of the country would do the same...that's where the problem lies.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I don't remember if it was this thread or another, but I have lived in several countries too, and experienced many more. With my new job, that experience will grow. We shall see if my opinion changes or not.

 

[ABQShredHead]

So you got the job then, Ken? Details? (Nevermind... I found it in the other thread - Congratulations!)

razor, perhaps if you turned some of that angst into positive energy and pursued a degree? You obviously see the importance of said "piece of paper" - though I do not use the word understand - why not pursue it?

Hmm... the best example I've seen related to this topic is from a book called 9 Things A Leader Must Do, where a woman had wanted to pursue a law degree from the time she was a youngster. It was her dream. But, due to her life circumstances, she had to work outside her dream to make ends meet. The author had a discussion with her to find out about her dreams. She didn't want to go into law school because it would take her three years to complete her JD. The author asked her a simple question: "Do you plan on being alive three years from now?" She, of course, said yes, wondering about the question and it's applicability. The author then went on to explain that she could continue in her misery for four years, or she could enroll in school and have her JD. She thought about the implications for a moment, and decided he was right.

But, as you've related, I have no idea about your circumstances.

 

[ABQShredHead]

Here's an interesting topic to throw opinions at... how do you all feel about the death penalty? I read this local article and wonder why these people are not dealt with appropriately. I and my fellow NM'icans must pay life support for the next 85 years for these pieces of trash?

 

[noble savage]

As you said, from an economic level, the death penalty is probably better, but I just can't agree with it on a moral level. I have seen a couple of shows with interviews of people who have committed horrific crimes so bad that they have made my stomach churn and for that, they deserve to be locked up in a jail cell for the rest of their lives, but I still don't think it's right to have them in turn murdered.

There is no doubt a high level of irrationality on the part of the murderer and I don't understand how state sanctioned death is any different or less irrational.

 

[razoredge]

Death penality is highly rational, not having it is what is totally irrational and it needs to go far beyond the bounds of murder. It was not that long ago that horse theifs were hung and traitors were executed, and prey tell, what did that hurt. Its not murder its execution, choices have consequences... at least until recent years. It amazes me that people who have thier total life uprooted is just passed off as "oh well, thats how it goes" but hearts bleed for wack jobs. Go figure

 

[J-Dubya 777]

I disagree (with Noble). I'm 100% FOR the death penalty, its just not the economic reasons either. I'm pretty hard core about certain crimes being MORE than deserving of the death penalty. I get pissed off at these a-holes who stopped executions because the lethal injection system had some issues. I say go back to firing squads, electric chairs, & gas chambers full time. Since when are people who do such unspeakable crimes so deserving of a peaceful, pain free death, or why should they be allowed to live with shelter and food for the rest of their lives? I see no reason to preserve them to "study". Scrape up some DNA off their corpse, and do your research from there. There are people on this planet who, IMHFO, really don't deserve to be part of OUR civilization. The serve the greater whole, dead....