2008 Political debate thread

[Iced Dog]

Obama's delivery was poor. But the little laugh at Giuliani's expense was pretty funny.

It seemed like half the time he had a pretty good deadpan delivery, then other times he was struggling to keep from laughing, which was funny in itself...like during the whole "punched a paparazi on my way out of Spago, spilling my soy chai latte" comment

 

[J-Dubya 777]

Sad. I actually read this article thinking for sure I would find the ACLU challenging the safety of our children. And, sadly, I found it.

Yeah, WTF.....Part of the reason I mostly hate the ACLU....

 

[ABQShredHead]

Hmm, so the Dem Congress has already come out and foretold what life will be like under a President Obama. Increase spending with absolute disregard for the deficit because there are plenty of rich Americans out there we can tax and make up the money later. Their idea of "rich" now includes individuals making $100k or more per year. A month ago, "rich" was over $250k a year. Already, they are redefining their principles and biting into the upper middle class.

 

[noble savage]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/john_mccain_accidentally_left_on

http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/10/photoshop-conte.html

 

[Kenneth R.]

Hmm, so the Dem Congress has already come out and foretold what life will be like under a President Obama. Increase spending with absolute disregard for the deficit because there are plenty of rich Americans out there we can tax and make up the money later. Their idea of "rich" now includes individuals making $100k or more per year. A month ago, "rich" was over $250k a year. Already, they are redefining their principles and biting into the upper middle class.

Doesn't bother me one bit. $100k is still rich to me.

 

[ABQShredHead]

Not at all rich.

 

[Swabs]

I think people here are missing the important issues:
http://www.weebls-stuff.com/wab/Rally/

 

[razoredge]

Hmm, so the Dem Congress has already come out and foretold what life will be like under a President Obama. Increase spending with absolute disregard for the deficit because there are plenty of rich Americans out there we can tax and make up the money later. Their idea of "rich" now includes individuals making $100k or more per year. A month ago, "rich" was over $250k a year. Already, they are redefining their principles and biting into the upper middle class.

While I dont approve of more unnessary spending. I'll agree with hitting those with higher incomes a bit harder, which is all it will be... a little bit. Its many in these upper income brackets that began throwing money around like pocket change in the first place. Running up the price of housing, $35,000 SUV's, lobbying town halls for all kinds of regulations, restrictions, zoning ordanances. So by that there is no proof to me that they dont have extra to go around.

Start up the presses, blow off a few trillion in new bills. Hand it to China, Japan, Russia and whom ever else we owe the money too and say... "there, the slate is clean, we will no longer accept your products in our country." "Oh, by the way, we are consficating all your American holdings, you have till the end of the day to pack up and leave... have a nice day... good bye"

 

[ABQShredHead]

No, quite the contrary. Our economy is based on consumerism. Driving up taxes for the "rich" will reduce consumer spending. Taxing on capital gains will reduce investing. Our backyard companies, our mom & pop restaurants and stores, will close up shop, and then we'll be overrun by Chinese, Japanese, and Russian business people.

And, no, $100k a year with a family of four does not mean I can "[throw] money around like pocket change... running up the price of housing, $35,000 SUV's, lobbying town halls for all kinds of regulations, restrictions, zoning ordinances" - I do not participate in any such activities. Once again, your net of generalities fails to produce fish.

What ran up housing prices were mortgage programs that had no place in our society, not people with "pocket change" to spend on homes.

The part I don't understand is that these people in Congress fall into that same income class - are they going to pay on their own tax burdens???

 

[razoredge]

Sure, maybe not all but many, many did. It was a big thing not to many years ago about "expendable cash", sure wasnt the under 30,000 that had it. The generalization falls on those that think I'm talking about "every last one". Its time this country becomes something besides a bunch of consumers, and becomes producers, then we can consume our own production and all the work force can enjoy a moderate level of consumerism. Chinese, Russian and "other" business people can not over run us if we dont let them in the country and simply say "sorry there is nothing here for you"

While you say the shaming mortages ran up housing prices, it was also those that thought nothing of the pricing and decided they needed 5 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, 3 stall garage on a tiny lot in some subdivision for $350,000 - 500,000. along with a boat, a Lexus or BMW that fed the entire false economy to the level it assumed. Massive consumerism fed into the law of supply and demand pricing. The schools jumped on board, the local politicians through the state and fed, the insurance companies, you name it, people were living in a sea of bliss. Add to that, extreme oil prices and tax assesments... voila... welcome to today, busted credit.

 

[Iced Dog]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/john_mccain_accidentally_left_on

Wow, it's been a while since I checked The Onion...those news videos are so good

Obama Promises To Stop America's Shitty Jobs From Going Overseas
12-Year-Old Boy Scouts Volunteer To Give Women Breast Exams

 

[ABQShredHead]

Busted credit is a result of people spending well beyond their limits by signing up for mortgage programs without understanding the intents of those programs. That is not consumerism.

The consumerism we face today is people again wanting wanting wanting, and wanting cheaply. Since our fellow Americans cannot produce cheap products, people purchase crap imported from China and Mexico, thereby fueling more and more importing from those countries. Our abilities to produce are limited as such. Something of a vicious cycle, really.

 

[noble savage]

Good point! Don't we owe China something like $1,000,000,000,000? That could pretty much cripple our economy!

 

[ABQShredHead]

Those Onion vids were funny.

 

[Iced Dog]

The consumerism we face today is people again wanting wanting wanting, and wanting cheaply. Since our fellow Americans cannot produce cheap products, people purchase crap imported from China and Mexico, thereby fueling more and more importing from those countries. Our abilities to produce are limited as such. Something of a vicious cycle, really.

I agree...so how do we fix something systemic like that? It's not like people are ever gonna want to pay more if given a choice, generally speaking. I think we need a couple things. One, more incentive for companies to stay domestic...and two, a change in corporate philosophy, one that puts providing/sustaining jobs and supporting American communities above the bottom line. Point #2 will be the toughest to accomplish.

 

[razoredge]

Busted credit is a result of people spending well beyond their limits by signing up for mortgage programs without understanding the intents of those programs. That is not consumerism.

The consumerism we face today is people again wanting wanting wanting, and wanting cheaply. Since our fellow Americans cannot produce cheap products, people purchase crap imported from China and Mexico, thereby fueling more and more importing from those countries. Our abilities to produce are limited as such. Something of a vicious cycle, really.

Yes, but you have to admit, people not blinking an eye at such prices and falling for it is what created the problem in the first place. We can "say no to ****** but we cant say no to the puppet masters

Yes it has been a vicious plumet (not cycle) the past 30 years but it was allowed without a thought to the final consequences and this is where our government that is in bed with investor and other money types failed us. My parents bought 1 TV, 1 stereo, 1 refrigerator, 1 vacume cleaner... my fathers item of any tools he had. I am on my 3rd refridge... already, the first was my parents old GE that I only got rid of because the massive handle finally wore out and the power companies convinced everyone that the old ones were "inefficient" yet my electric bill went up with this new one and it runs nearly non stop and doesnt really keep things COLD. The 3rd TV, I cant even remember how many vacumes I've bought and they all sucked (lol). Second computer, second stereo in the shop, the old expensive Kenwood individual component stereo is still working great in the house. Any power tools I've bought for the shop dont last. Those that still work are those I got from my grandfather and father that are 30-40-50 years old... AMERICAN made! I still believe it all boils down to various trade agreements we have made over the years, so these other countries wouldnt go communist (with Russia) or start wars or terrorize us or their own people... simple ass kissing "foreign relations". We should have led by example, not ass kissing.

 

[razoredge]

I agree...so how do we fix something systemic like that? It's not like people are ever gonna want to pay more if given a choice, generally speaking. I think we need a couple things. One, more incentive for companies to stay domestic...and two, a change in corporate philosophy, one that puts providing/sustaining jobs and supporting American communities above the bottom line. Point #2 will be the toughest to accomplish.

Correct, however there could be no incentive great enough, that is why it should be a simple "if you leave, your products will not be on our shelves" "if you stay and produce junk, sell our people junk, we will shut you down and confiscate all the property and funds of the penny pinching, filthy stinking rich CEOS and their accountants (bean counters)."

That should be incentive enough.

While everyone sits and says to themselves, "what a prick" "what an asshole" "what a communist 'Hitler' ". They should stop to think and remember that that is nearly what our more recent government regulations have done to private contractors. Individuals trying to start self employment through carpentry, logging, excavating or nearly any other trade are forced to comply with strict quality regulation (yet rarely enforced), training and licencing. Yet it allows any old piece of garbage to be put on the store shelves stealing its citizens money. Sorry but I just think its time to raise the bar through mandates, somehow get some pride rather than shamelessness back into this country.

 

[ABQShredHead]

We can stir interest in keeping jobs local by giving tax breaks to companies based on the percentage of their workforce that is American (afterall, you're already taxing their employees, do you need to tax the company that much more?) or at least resides on American soil, and increasing tariffs on imported goods from countries that have illegitimate work forces. By that last bit, I mean countries who don't pay appropriate wages to their workers. A simple metric to use is how many US companies have relocated their workforces to those countries. The increased tariffs would have the intent of "leveling the playing field" in terms of prices on the store shelves. And eliminating the capital gains taxes will allow greater investment into US companies. These companies can then make their capital money from their increased investments. And, perhaps some governmental control over Wall street to ensure the proper company performance metrics are being evaluated would help as well; but, I'm a little fearful of that because that would typically result in huge bureacracies slowing the processes without need. Performance metrics should turn more to free cash flow mechanisms (cash generated by operating the business minus the money invested to keep it running) rather than EBITDA margins.

 

[razoredge]

could someone please explain capital gains tax to me so Im sure what it is. I think I know but could be wrong. Is it not just an income tax of the net earnings of any business, which is essentially an income tax, being how it IS income ?

 

[ABQShredHead]

In a nutshell in my references, capital gains tax is the tax on the money you make in investments (i.e., the stocks, bonds, precious metals, and properties) above the cost you paid for it.