2008 Political debate thread
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DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
Just trying to generate false hype. Sorry, i'm feeling really antsy to get done with work today and thus feel the need to derail perfectly good discussions.
I feel the need to be constructive, so i'll repost something i posted on another forum in response to someone saying Hillary wouldn't win because she's a woman (bullshit):
Also, since this is a general politics thread (not just presidential election, though obviously that's the topic on everyone's minds at the moment) who all has smoking bans in their state? I'm curious because a few years ago Seattle passed a smoking ban and people still bitch about it. another segment of the same thread:
I am not one to demonize smokers, a lot of my friends smoke and i often go outside to chill with them on their smoke breaks or whatever, but it isn't bad when it's outside. In an enclosed space, that stuff just sticks on you. I can deal with people smoking but can't stand the smell *on* me.
I feel the need to be constructive, so i'll repost something i posted on another forum in response to someone saying Hillary wouldn't win because she's a woman (bullshit):
Also, since this is a general politics thread (not just presidential election, though obviously that's the topic on everyone's minds at the moment) who all has smoking bans in their state? I'm curious because a few years ago Seattle passed a smoking ban and people still bitch about it. another segment of the same thread:
I am not one to demonize smokers, a lot of my friends smoke and i often go outside to chill with them on their smoke breaks or whatever, but it isn't bad when it's outside. In an enclosed space, that stuff just sticks on you. I can deal with people smoking but can't stand the smell *on* me.
noble savage
Member
Edit 2. This post is in regards to conspiracy theories about global warming and all other aspects of human self destruction.
I'm not one to accept or deny any such theories, because as you all know both sides are full of shit and will twist the truth (Whatever that may be!) to fit their purpose.
I am, however, sure of one thing. People love death, destruction and the end of humanity whether they admit it or not. Just turn on the news or really any show for that matter. ALL of it (News for the biggest part.) revolves around stabbings, shootings, murders, genocide etc etc. I was watching a program on sea creatures and suddenly it switched to global warming and, obviously, how people are all going to die from it.
Does anyone else notice this? I would bet that if all violence was removed from all media sources, people would probably start getting bored and killing each other.
Edit: Yes Zach, I completely agree. I don't bitch at all about people smoking inside (I hate when people complain!), but it is very nice not to have to deal with it. Second hand smoke in small places is at the top of my list of things I don't like.
I'm not one to accept or deny any such theories, because as you all know both sides are full of shit and will twist the truth (Whatever that may be!) to fit their purpose.
I am, however, sure of one thing. People love death, destruction and the end of humanity whether they admit it or not. Just turn on the news or really any show for that matter. ALL of it (News for the biggest part.) revolves around stabbings, shootings, murders, genocide etc etc. I was watching a program on sea creatures and suddenly it switched to global warming and, obviously, how people are all going to die from it.
Does anyone else notice this? I would bet that if all violence was removed from all media sources, people would probably start getting bored and killing each other.
Edit: Yes Zach, I completely agree. I don't bitch at all about people smoking inside (I hate when people complain!), but it is very nice not to have to deal with it. Second hand smoke in small places is at the top of my list of things I don't like.
ABQShredHead
©1970
Because Mars' temperature has increased at the exact same rate as the temperature on Earth over the last 10 years. Are we to believe that WE are causing global warming on Mars too?
I'm no expert on global warming, but let me just say that there are certain people on this Earth who have a very particular interest in the proposed solution to global warming, that being the "Carbon Tax". Follow this money trail to those who will be receiving it and you'll have a better understanding of this particular theory as to the motives behind those pushing the global warming agenda. And let me just say this... Al Gore is a very influential member of organizations who stand to benefit from this carbon tax.
Again, I am not stating this as fact. It's just a very interesting storyline that to me makes a lot of sense.
The fact that the NHS in England is helping people who need it is irrelevant. The point I was making is that the US Constitution does not in any way guarantee anyone health care. Government was designed to serve humanity, and the US governments job was to leave people alone to live their lives the way they wanted to, and to protect their rights from infringement from others. It was not to make sure everyone was taken care of. If you think it was, then you should re-read the Constitution of the US, because you won't find anything in there about the government giving people anything.
And how can you even try to argue that the government doesn't gain control of its citizens when it controls programs like these? I mean, come on! Do you have any clue how many senior citizens in America are absolutely reliant on the government for their very survival because they were forced into paying into the Social Security program? Are you going to tell me that if the government told them that they had to vote a certain way or they would lose their benefits that they are going to defy the government? Not a chance in hell! And the Democrats in America have been promoting the socialist agenda on every front since FDR was President. They are creating a dependant society whereby nobody will question the government's action out of fear of losing their handouts.
When you rely on someone else for you very existence you are their slave. You just have to hope that your owner is a kind and generous person. Unfortunately, the US government is NOT. Just ask any Iraqi civilian who has lost limbs, property, children, whatever thanks to the American government being so kind as to liberate them.
Don't think for a second that government involvement in anything is a good thing. People should be left alone, allowed to keep all of the money they make, and provide for themselves. And when they can't, charities can help them. But to claim that anyone is entitled to health care at the expense of everyone else is ridiculous. If you were American, you'd certainly be a Democrat with your logic.
People should bitch about it. I'm a non-smoker, and as much as I like not having to breath smoke, the fact is that this is just another example of the government stepping all over the rights of us citizens. Of course, they make it out to be a good thing, and they know that most non-smokers will not bother to think about the context and just say "Hey, no smoke. This is great!"
The point is that if you own a bar, it is YOUR property, not the government's. And YOU have the right to determine whether or not you want to allow smoking in your bar. If non-smokers don't like it, they don't have to go to your bar. It's that simple. So eventually when enough non-smokers decide they won't go to the smoking bars anymore, someone will open a smoke free bar (their prerogative) and will cater to the crowd who prefers that situation. It's called the free market, and our "leaders" claim to be all about this concept, but almost never actually are. Why? Because they want control. They know that if they pass the smoking ban and nobody challenges it in court, they've now got control over a piece of legislation and can use this power for their own gain.
This is exactly why our Constitution was designed to LIMIT the power of the government. Because the more power you have, the more influence you can peddle. Power breeds corruption, and this is exactly why our government is involved in EVERYTHING! There is almost nothing you can do anymore without the government's approval. You can't build on your own property, you can't take $10000 out of your bank account without them asking questions, and soon you won't be able to enter a Federal building if you don't carry their ID. It's insane. America is not free, and it hasn't been for a really long time. And it's laws like these smoking bans that should clue the average person in to this fact. But the ones who benefit just shut up, because they're getting what they want. And they don't care that someone else's rights are being violated in the process. That's the American way.
This is an interesting tidbit that I was not aware of. It pisses me off as well.
You want to be pissed off? Investigate the recent bill that Obama (yes, Obama) pushed through the Senate which MANDATES that .7% of the entire US Gross Domestic Product be sent directly to the United Nations so that they can use this money to fight world poverty.
0.7%!!! This equates to about $80 BILLION over the next 10 years. Right out of all of our pockets, and into the hands of the UN to do with as they see fit.
Does anyone actually believe that this is going to help? And wouldn't you like to have had some say in where YOUR money is going around the world?
Oh yeah, there was also a provision in that bill whereby the UN will be imposing a universal ban on certain small handguns. Goodbye 2nd amendment and United States sovreignty. Hello new United Nations daddy!
Absolutely. There is always a certain amount of faith you have to have in the absence of concrete evidence. But when you weigh the difference between what you hear from these sources against world events, you should end up with enough circumstantial evidence to support one theory over the other.
Believe me, I was always critical of our government, but never in a million years would I have believed what I beleive now. In the last 9 months I have seen information that has boggled my mind. However, I have seen, over time, the explanations for certain world events and have used my own judgement to determine which one I believe to be the more logical explanation.
For example, the IRAN situation... Here's a small country where the 2 countries on their East and West are both controlled by the most powerful military nation on Earth. We've made it very clear through our actions that we fully intend to use our military to impose our will on any country that gets in our way, regardless of justification. We have also singled them out as 1 of 3 countries in an "Axis-of-Evil", so they know they are already on the hot seat.
So the US government has done everything in their power to villafy Iran as an evil country who is hell bent on destroying Israel and making sure that nukes get in the hands of terrorists sot hey can use them against the USA. Yet, a report by our own intelligence agencies recently concluded that they have no nuke program, nor have they had one for nearly 4 years. So what did we do? We increased the sanctions on them, and our President upped the rhetoric about the danger they pose to the world. then came the kicker...
Back on January 7th of 2008, the Pentagon release a story to the press that 5 speedboats (captained by members of the Iranian Republican Guard) threatened 3 US Navy War ships in the Straight of Hormuz. Now, why would Iran do this? They have very little military capabilities and know damned well that we could take them out just like we did in Iraq. And yet, they're going to provoke US? What possible motive could they have for signing their own death warrant? Does it make any sense for them to f*ck with us, knowing full well they are already in our crosshairs?
But the government wants us to believe that IRAN is the aggressor here. Hmm, interesting. But then when you find out about the "Iranian Oil Bourse" (google it) and the impact this completely legal entity could have on the US economy, you start to consider who has more motive to be engaged in an obviously 1 sided military conflict.
I've already weighed the evidence on this one, and I'm not claiming Iran's leaders are a bunch of saints, but logic can only lead you one way on this one. Put your blind patriotism aside and you can only draw 1 conclusion as to who the real aggressors are in this one. Can I state this with absolute fact? Certainly not. I don't have a smoking gun, but many a criminal conviction has been secured based on strong circumstantial evidence.
Anyway, that's how I look at things.
noble savage
Member
Well, we seemed to have gotten off on the wrong foot before, but I seem to agree with a majority of what your saying.
The people in charge have taken away so many of our rights (Patriot act for fuck sake!!!), but I see no reason to even complain. The president and the people under him will do as they see fit and, as shown time and again, they will get away with it. Just tag the "You're un American if you disagree" in front of all the BS and you're invincible. A majority of them should spend the remainder of their life in jail, but nothing will ever happen to them. Bush cares more about giving the phone companies immunity than he does for the soldiers that gave their life.
Let me be clear, I will vote for a republican or a democrat (Or whomever I feel is most fit.) History has shown that both parties have yielded very respected presidents. However, I don't think anyone can deny that in the past 8 years there have been some scary changes under Bush.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
I agree with a lot of what you say, hence my tidbit about how there are flaws with the law. The major flaw in logic that i see is people going to bars to drink and harm their liver, yet they complain about second hand smoke. The other thing is cigar clubs and things like that... it kills those businesses or else they have to drastically change. But the thing to me is especially with all ages venues, it makes perfect sense to have an imposed ban.
Noble,
I just want to say that if I had said anything specific towards you earlier, I do apologize. I get so angry sometimes when I discuss this stuff that I can get defensive and come across as condescending, etc. Anyway, I have absolutely no hard feelings towards anyone here.
That said, I do want to address the quoted statement above...
I sympathize that it seems hopeless for us to change anything, but that's only because we, as a people, don't organize and coordinate resistance. The internet has changed activism 1000 fold over the last decade. There is now a way to universally coordinate to build numbers, and to create coalitions that have a real chance of succeeding. Unfortunately, until most people see the problem, they'll never realize how bad things actually are and will also never see the people who are building these activist groups. There are major networks right now of people who are determined to stop the loss of our rights before it's too late. But like you said, most people believe these groups are un-American, because the ideas they espouse are completely against what they hear from the mainstream media. They never stop to think about how they are being enslaved, and so they won't even consider joining these groups and getting involved.
Believe me, I had the same sense of hopelessness about a year ago. Now that I understand who is in control of America, and see what they plan to do with it, I have decided that I will not allow myself to sit idle and not do what I can to stop it. I have a 9 year old daughter and a5 year old son, and I don't inted for them to grow up in a totalitarian state.
All I can say is that for anyone who may not see how bad things are getting (and it's easy not to), please watch this film. [ame]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173[/ame]
If it makes you angry as hell (it did to me) then let's talk. All it takes is for you to plug into the resistance system, and then educate others to do the same. Over time we can build the army we'll need to take this country back. All hope is not lost as long as we don't just lay down and let them have their way with us.
Later man!
noble savage
Member
Yes, I agree to a large extent with this. I drew the same conclusion sometime ago. However, you should keep in mind that we are talking about a country that airs commercials claiming that Coca Cola (And other large US corporations) supply money to anti Islamic activities. This is also a culture that embraces war as a glorious prelude to the Day Of Judgment (Sounds oddly familiar..) While the blame can be placed on America, there is a little more to the story. The Iranian gove...theocracy is not something people should take lightly.
Well it may seem funny... but !
This is the honest truth and well know fact
The Adirondac Mountains in NY State are loaded with "dead lakes", they are improving and nothing like they were 30 years ago when it was a serious problem.
Now most of you prolly dont know this but the snow (& rain) that comes into the Adirondacks blows in off the Great Lakes. The Great Lakes area was at one time very industrialized, much more than it is today and there were no controls on what came out of "the stacks". There alot of other issues regarding heavy polution in NY but I'll just leave at the effects that were evident 30-40 years ago before regulations were put in effect.
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Most of you have not been around long and are unaware of the changes. Your also prone to the opposite propaganda. Like I said there is alot more to be lost by stopping the nonsense and no one wants to be "inconvienced" so everyone will jump on the "bullshit" bandwagon. Most people are also happy that its not so cold out side so they dont get their wittle fingies cold.
So carry on, the laugh your having will be on you and your chiuldren and grandchildren. Ignorance is bliss..........
noble savage
Member
Well, the most frustrating thing about the current situation is that people really don't seem to care or (More likely.) are completely ignorant of current events. I agree that people need to become better educated on the matter instead of voting for someone because he has charisma. These kind of problems can be fixed from the ground up by first electing people who actually care what the constitution says. By army, I hope you mean peacefully gathering people right?
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
This is fair enough. It's more that i'm fed up with propaganda of any kind that i just shut it out and rather than swing to the opposite side out of spite, just call bullshit on the whole thing. Basically, it's the same as staying out of an argument until a resolution is reached, though we all know there's no resolution to this one... opposing sides will always oppose.
Global warming: i do believe that it is a natural cycle of the planet. We have hot spots and ice ages. it is just the way things always tend to go. is it good for humanity? Well, it sure ain't no picnic, but either we'll survive as a species or we won't.
Environmentalism in general: I just grow tired of people saying we're "killing the planet". That's a bit extreme... I am all for the environment, don't litter, don't be a jackass, don't fuck shit up just for shits and giggles, but to say the planet will be outright destroyed is a bit senseless. I know a lot of you don't live in the pacific northwest, but there's a LOT of treehuggers up here (you guys might have your own where you are). it gets old to have a chick with unshaven pits and a dude wearing rope for a belt and dredded, unwashed hair and a bandana tell me how i'm killing the earth, while they live in a commune and buy food at the co-op and live a "green" lifestyle. Please ignore the fact that they're living comfortably on mommy and daddy's money!
The fact is, while things are far from "ideal", we are making huge improvements as a culture to make things better. Emissions standards in vehicles are way more strict than they were years ago, there's more hybrid vehicles, people are finding more efficiant ways to heat and light their house, the list goes on and on.
Also, the earth is way more resiliant than hardcore environmentalists would want you to believe. Yes, it takes time, but the earth CAN and WILL heal itself from any damage (save for paving an area with tons of concrete and asphalt and building cities, but even that... leave it be for long enough without human interferance...). Again, it takes time, but i would bet my life that you simply cannot destroy the earth unless you quite literally blow it up.
The end.
Burnout
Faith Puppeteer
I started riding a bike to class and I've put gas in my car once this year, not to mention the fact that I've never been in better shape. Even when I do fill up it costs all of $35 even with prices are the way they are.
yea, Zach, we have tree huggers, Im one of them..... lol ...... litterly, I love trees, I had a girlfriend once that told me she never saw a man walk up and hug a tree before she met me. I was a logger for 20 years and have seemed to mangaged to do some thinning here and there every year since, which is that past 7 years. So that would make 28 years and I was hugging them long before that, wood is a wonderful thing. I also know alot about the business, both the good and the ugly, unfortunantly the ugly outweighs that good.
The biggest thing that pisses me off is the population, everyone whines about the problems but never once speaks a word about the root of the problem, because it goes against the bible and against the "rights" of those that feel a huge family is some kind of possession to be proud of........ even when the rest of the population is actually supporting them.......... but now Im approaching my most radical side, and if you want to start a war (bitch fest) tread that ground a bit and see who gets up in arms.
Then we're so fucking lazy we cant rake our leaves anymore, we need to blow them....... we cant take a walk in the woods, we need a four wheeler or a snowmobile, we cant go swimming..... we need a boat, boat doesnt have a big enough motor, we need a bigger boat, his boats bigger than mine, I need a bigger boat...... and here I sit.... just wishing my boat got blown as much as the leaves.....
Its just friggin crazy
The biggest thing that pisses me off is the population, everyone whines about the problems but never once speaks a word about the root of the problem, because it goes against the bible and against the "rights" of those that feel a huge family is some kind of possession to be proud of........ even when the rest of the population is actually supporting them.......... but now Im approaching my most radical side, and if you want to start a war (bitch fest) tread that ground a bit and see who gets up in arms.
Then we're so fucking lazy we cant rake our leaves anymore, we need to blow them....... we cant take a walk in the woods, we need a four wheeler or a snowmobile, we cant go swimming..... we need a boat, boat doesnt have a big enough motor, we need a bigger boat, his boats bigger than mine, I need a bigger boat...... and here I sit.... just wishing my boat got blown as much as the leaves.....
Its just friggin crazy
noble savage
Member
You know what fucking pisses me off? When people litter and just decide they can throw shit wherever they want. I walked outside this morning to fill up our bird feeders and I looked over at our pond and there was a magazine and pieces of newspaper in it.
I'm not a tree hugger or anything (Though, in a few months when I'm living on my own, I will most likely stop eating meat. Which is kind of tree huggerish I suppose.) I just hate it when people litter.
I'm not a tree hugger or anything (Though, in a few months when I'm living on my own, I will most likely stop eating meat. Which is kind of tree huggerish I suppose.) I just hate it when people litter.
I believe Hillary will be elected and exactly for the reasons stated that she wont. I see it as "great job, one hell of alot of options we have this time around" It like the whole election is about setting precident, making some kind of sociol statement.
Smoking has been outside only, for along time in NY, its a good thing
So we know Mars has warmed as much as the earth... because.... some martians dropped in and told us so......... ?
We hate global warming issues... because... we hate Al Gore..... ?
We're pissed because we invest in environmentals caution, and not pissed about all the other spending ? because we should be useing that money to...... colonize Mars ?
Human focus... impossible to come by.
Smoking has been outside only, for along time in NY, its a good thing
So we know Mars has warmed as much as the earth... because.... some martians dropped in and told us so......... ?
We hate global warming issues... because... we hate Al Gore..... ?
We're pissed because we invest in environmentals caution, and not pissed about all the other spending ? because we should be useing that money to...... colonize Mars ?
Human focus... impossible to come by.
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