Black Metal.

[Vossyrus]

A lot of what you said doesn't have anything to do with this discussion at all. I'm not sure why you think that I equate selling music with being bad, as I enjoy many popular and successful bands. I don't support bands that I feel become vapid in the interest of commercial appeal, which is my opinion of Watain's newer music. I honestly don't care about new Burzum or Burzum merchandise at all and Varg will never achieve the level of marketability that Watain and their record label have strived for, nor do I believe that he is trying to do that.

However, Dimmu Borgir is one of the most commercially successful metal bands worldwide, so I'd qualify them as well-off financially considering their broad international appeal, level of commercial success, vast music and merchandise sales, media appearances and level if critical recognition. Their albums consistently sell well and are well-received by the public in many countries. I don't know how much money they make exactly, but they are definitely one of the highest selling metal bands in the world.

Oh, and Peste Noire sucks, so I'm not sure why you're even talking about them. They have nothing to do with this conversation and their artistic evolution is incomparable with Watain or Dimmu Borgir.

You clearly don't get it. All bands have commercial aspirations otherwise they wouldn't sign to labels in the first place to, you know, engage in commerce. And why is it that the vast majority of European bands or bands whose first language is not English, decide to write lyrics in English? To spread their message to a wider audience, obviously. I guess everyone's a sellout.

Also, you fail to realize that bands naturally only gain more attention over the years through developing an increasingly stronger fan base and reputation. This coupled with a label more willing and readily able to further promote the band since there's a greater chance at making money and less risks. Also, it's inevitable that a band will change their sound over the years just as it is that their albums are likely to feature a more-polished production each time out. You can argue, that through this, most bands become increasingly accessible. But, in the grand scheme of things, black metal of any variety is hardly accessible to the average person.

And you've got to be kidding me, Burzum is aeons more commercially successful than Watain will ever be or will ever dream to be. Varg is the primary reason why black metal exploded and is able to have any real degree of commercial success. Guaranteed, more people own Burzum music and merchandise than Watain and not to mention, the name Burzum alone means infinitely more than anything having to do with the name Watain. And you were the one who brought up Watain's CDs being available in stores like target as if it truly means something. I made the point about a band like Peste Noire because I've seen their stuff at mainstream stores too. Peste Noire is not nearly as known or successful as Watain is, so what's the significance in your point?

And Dimmu Borgir is able to get by without the band members having to pick up second jobs, which is truthfully about as 'well off' as the average person. I'm not sure what world you live in, but you're incredibly naive to think that any extreme metal band lives a lavish rock-star lifestyle. Dimmu Borgir certainly don't and if they're amongst the top, how 'well off' do you think Watain truly is? They certainly won't get anywhere close to that rock-star lifestyle you envision them as having, by playing black metal.

 

[Vossyrus]

What makes it especially crazy is the fact that there had to be a bid war between at least one or two others to push it that high. Not only one, but numerous people were willing to throw that much cash at that.

eBay is notorious for shill bidding, so I'm never surprised to see ridiculously high prices on rare item auctions. It's always a little bit fishy when bidders routinely make several bids on a single auction or have a high percentage of bid activity with a particular seller.

 

[immo]

Any insight on the latest work of Countess/Helheim? or other new(few years) BM releases. For example the newest Negura Bunget album... it's not bad but for me it's way under everything they released prior to 'OM'.

 

[Thralldom]

You clearly don't get it. All bands have commercial aspirations otherwise they wouldn't sign to labels in the first place to, you know, engage in commerce. And why is it that the vast majority of European bands or bands whose first language is not English, decide to write lyrics in English? To spread their message to a wider audience, obviously. I guess everyone's a sellout.

Also, you fail to realize that bands naturally only gain more attention over the years through developing an increasingly stronger fan base and reputation. This coupled with a label more willing and readily able to further promote the band since there's a greater chance at making money and less risks. Also, it's inevitable that a band will change their sound over the years just as it is that their albums are likely to feature a more-polished production each time out. You can argue, that through this, most bands become increasingly accessible. But, in the grand scheme of things, black metal of any variety is hardly accessible to the average person.

And you've got to be kidding me, Burzum is aeons more commercially successful than Watain will ever be or will ever dream to be. Varg is the primary reason why black metal exploded and is able to have any real degree of commercial success. Guaranteed, more people own Burzum music and merchandise than Watain and not to mention, the name Burzum alone means infinitely more than anything having to do with the name Watain. And you were the one who brought up Watain's CDs being available in stores like target as if it truly means something. I made the point about a band like Peste Noire because I've seen their stuff at mainstream stores too. Peste Noire is not nearly as known or successful as Watain is, so what's the significance in your point?

And Dimmu Borgir is able to get by without the band members having to pick up second jobs, which is truthfully about as 'well off' as the average person. I'm not sure what world you live in, but you're incredibly naive to think that any extreme metal band lives a lavish rock-star lifestyle. Dimmu Borgir certainly don't and if they're amongst the top, how 'well off' do you think Watain truly is? They certainly won't get anywhere close to that rock-star lifestyle you envision them as having, by playing black metal.

I'm going to simplify my argument to three sentences to give you a more fair chance to actually reply to it because you have yet to do so unless you count unrelated discussions as a reply:

It is my OPINION that Watain and their record label are more worried about album sales than releasing music that is artistically valuable in comparison with their first two albums. You keep posting stupid shit that isn't related to that and trying to refute my personal opinion by talking about other bands. I don't care about how successful a band is, but I do care about how their music sounds and whether or not I find it enjoyable.

 

[Vossyrus]

Are you that dense that you cannot make the connection? If Watain and their label cared more about record sales than anything else, Watain wouldn't be a black metal band. And to reiterate, all record labels want to make money, just as all bands need to sell albums and merchandise and to play shows in order to survive. A record label is supposed to promote their roster! And if you're a band trying to make it, it's rather difficult to tour around the world if you're trying to hold down second or third jobs. By the way, how many albums do you think Watain sell? I'm certain it's significantly less than you think. And Watain was never a complex band to begin with, so how have they simplified their sound for mass commercial appeal? I have no idea what you are talking about, their newer music isn't really any more accessible than their first two.

 

[skeptik]

Any insight on the latest work of Countess/Helheim? or other new(few years) BM releases. For example the newest Negura Bunget album... it's not bad but for me it's way under everything they released prior to 'OM'.

Although Barbarian Wrath closed shop, there will be a new Countess album this year, called Ancient Lies and Battlecries. Orlok has released an album in each of the past two years; Burning Scripture in 2010, and On Wings of Defiance in 2011. I hold Burning Scripture as among his best, possibly the second best after Heilig Vuur since the Nazgul's Eyrie days. On Wings of Defiance is good too, but it is more derivative of Burning Scriptures and is less consistent. I wrote a review for Burning Scripture for my magazine, but it's not published yet, so if you want to read it, I could PM it to you.

I haven't really been interested in Helheim since their second album tbh, so I couldn't really tell you.

 

[skeptik]

It is my OPINION that Watain and their record label are more worried about album sales than releasing music that is artistically valuable in comparison with their first two albums.

This is a silly opinion.

 

[Thralldom]

Are you that dense that you cannot make the connection? If Watain and their label cared more about record sales than anything else, Watain wouldn't be a black metal band. And to reiterate, all record labels want to make money, just as all bands need to sell albums and merchandise and to play shows in order to survive. A record label is supposed to promote their roster! And if you're a band trying to make it, it's rather difficult to tour around the world if you're trying to hold down second or third jobs. By the way, how many albums do you think Watain sell? I'm certain it's significantly less than you think. And Watain was never a complex band to begin with, so how have they simplified their sound for mass commercial appeal? I have no idea what you are talking about, their newer music isn't really any more accessible than their first two.

If you don't recognize the drastic change in Watain's music on the last two albums, you're the dense one. I'm not sure how much more obvious it can be that the new music is more catchy, melodic and focused on vocal delivery. However, unlike a lot of bands that make similar music, their sound doesn't come across as authentic to me. I've stated this multiple times during this conversation.

You keep (stupidly, I must add) talking about how every band that records music is trying to sell it, despite the fact that I've stated repeatedly that I'm not complaining about them wanting to sell albums, but that my complaints about them are due to my view that they have weakened the impact of their music by straying from the original values that gave me enjoyment in their music, with the probably intention of expanding their fan base by offering a more immediate, accessible level of gratification to the fringe community that exists right outside of what most extreme metal purists would consider the metal underground.

I'm opening to continuing the discussion if you disagree with my OPINION, but continuing your tirade about how ever band that records is trying to sell albums will not be considered a valid response as I've never stated this to be wrong and I don't care about whether or not a band is commercially successful.

This is a silly opinion.

You can feel however you like, but I consider my opinion to be valid based on my personal assessment of their music as far as I enjoy it (or don't in the case of their last two for reasons I've already explained). I think their execution, if this is an attempt to "find themselves" as I believe you stated earlier, was mediocre at best.

 

[skeptik]

I really don't think it's reasonable to hold the opinion that Sworn to the Dark demonstrates an active desire for the band to become more commercially accessible. The far more likely answer is that the band was heavily influenced by their tour with Dissection before they recorded that album. Also, Lawless Darkness is a bigger departure from Sworn to the Dark than you probably realize. It really is no concern of mine what you think of the band; I just think it's unfounded to deduce that the band has 'sold out'. At worst, they are striving to appeal to Euronymous' vision.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Although Barbarian Wrath closed shop, there will be a new Countess album this year, called Ancient Lies and Battlecries. Orlok has released an album in each of the past two years; Burning Scripture in 2010, and On Wings of Defiance in 2011. I hold Burning Scripture as among his best, possibly the second best after Heilig Vuur since the Nazgul's Eyrie days. On Wings of Defiance is good too, but it is more derivative of Burning Scriptures and is less consistent. I wrote a review for Burning Scripture for my magazine, but it's not published yet, so if you want to read it, I could PM it to you.

I haven't really been interested in Helheim since their second album tbh, so I couldn't really tell you.

I thought OWoD was a better album than BS. I haven't heard all of his mid-era albums, but BS is probably the weakest of his albums I've given serious time to. OWoD just has better energy and melodies IMO. They're fairly similar albums though. I always enjoy hearing a new one from Orlok though. Any idea where he will be distributing tHe new one through?

 

[skeptik]

I find that the songs on Burning Scripture are more well-composed and to the point, and is the more focused and coherent album. A few of the songs on On Wings of Defiance are a bit repetitious and unfocused, though there is some interesting usage of keyboards.

Also, check your PMs in a moment.

 

[Vossyrus]

If you don't recognize the drastic change in Watain's music on the last two albums, you're the dense one. I'm not sure how much more obvious it can be that the new music is more catchy, melodic and focused on vocal delivery. However, unlike a lot of bands that make similar music, their sound doesn't come across as authentic to me. I've stated this multiple times during this conversation.

You keep (stupidly, I must add) talking about how every band that records music is trying to sell it, despite the fact that I've stated repeatedly that I'm not complaining about them wanting to sell albums, but that my complaints about them are due to my view that they have weakened the impact of their music by straying from the original values that gave me enjoyment in their music, with the probably intention of expanding their fan base by offering a more immediate, accessible level of gratification to the fringe community that exists right outside of what most extreme metal purists would consider the metal underground.

I'm opening to continuing the discussion if you disagree with my OPINION, but continuing your tirade about how ever band that records is trying to sell albums will not be considered a valid response as I've never stated this to be wrong and I don't care about whether or not a band is commercially successful.



You can feel however you like, but I consider my opinion to be valid based on my personal assessment of their music as far as I enjoy it (or don't in the case of their last two for reasons I've already explained). I think their execution, if this is an attempt to "find themselves" as I believe you stated earlier, was mediocre at best.

Until you can provide credible evidence to support your claim, your opinion shall remain baseless and worthless. If you don't like their last couple of albums so be it, but at this point, all you are doing is slandering a band through your own ignorance. All of my previous posts were relevant to the conversation because they all pointed out how uninformed you really are, and how greatly skewered your perception of how things work in this world really is.

To illustrate my point, allow me to retort with an argument that is the equivalent to yours: In my opinion Dissection sold out. They used to be a very raw death metal band (check out their first EP) but then later became very accessible with catchier and more melodic songs upon subsequent releases, and also began incorporating more black metal influence which was more trendier at the time than death metal was. They recorded their albums at a very well known studio which was also a pretty trendy option, and it gave their albums a more polished, ear-friendly production too. Did I mention they signed to the mega-label Nuclear Blast? Also, note the Iron Maiden influences they made use of for obvious widespread commercial appeal. Don't forget, Jon was charged for being an accessory to murder which was his obvious attempt to boost his street cred just like Varg Vikernes and others had done previously. And remember that Jon eventually committed suicide to boost Reinkaos' album sales because he knew the album wasn't going to be well-received by fans. I could go on, but it doesn't matter if this is true or not, it's an opinion. But see how ridiculous an unfounded claim sounds? Besides, there are plenty of interviews with the band that essentially refute your claim. One can also substitute nearly any band here and could provide a similarly worthless argument.

I did a quick youtube search and found an interview that addresses some of this discussion:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fn5PD-G0ms"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fn5PD-G0ms[/ame]

 

[immo]

So i stumbled upon this

BM without guitars but they sound pretty good if you like ambient.

 

[Master_Yoda77]

I find that the songs on Burning Scripture are more well-composed and to the point, and is the more focused and coherent album. A few of the songs on On Wings of Defiance are a bit repetitious and unfocused, though there is some interesting usage of keyboards.

Also, check your PMs in a moment.

I found OWoD better as well. Mainly for the "Foggy Dew" which sounds a bit like Summoning. But I'm not familiar with either of the two albums enough to saw which is best. All his work is so consistently good some of it blends together.

 

[Thralldom]

Until you can provide credible evidence to support your claim, your opinion shall remain baseless and worthless. If you don't like their last couple of albums so be it, but at this point, all you are doing is slandering a band through your own ignorance. All of my previous posts were relevant to the conversation because they all pointed out how uninformed you really are, and how greatly skewered your perception of how things work in this world really is.

To illustrate my point, allow me to retort with an argument that is the equivalent to yours: In my opinion Dissection sold out. They used to be a very raw death metal band (check out their first EP) but then later became very accessible with catchier and more melodic songs upon subsequent releases, and also began incorporating more black metal influence which was more trendier at the time than death metal was. They recorded their albums at a very well known studio which was also a pretty trendy option, and it gave their albums a more polished, ear-friendly production too. Did I mention they signed to the mega-label Nuclear Blast? Also, note the Iron Maiden influences they made use of for obvious widespread commercial appeal. Don't forget, Jon was charged for being an accessory to murder which was his obvious attempt to boost his street cred just like Varg Vikernes and others had done previously. And remember that Jon eventually committed suicide to boost Reinkaos' album sales because he knew the album wasn't going to be well-received by fans. I could go on, but it doesn't matter if this is true or not, it's an opinion. But see how ridiculous an unfounded claim sounds? Besides, there are plenty of interviews with the band that essentially refute your claim. One can also substitute nearly any band here and could provide a similarly worthless argument.

I did a quick youtube search and found an interview that addresses some of this discussion:

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fn5PD-G0ms

Are you really asking me to provide evidence that Watain changed their musical style to one that I don't enjoy because it's a departure from their old music into a style that I find unpleasant? I'm speechless.

You're probably the worst debater that I've ever met online.

 

[Vossyrus]

Are you really asking me to provide evidence that Watain changed their musical style to one that I don't enjoy because it's a departure from their old music into a style that I find unpleasant? I'm speechless.

You're probably the worst debater that I've ever met online.

You can read but you cannot comprehend anything you read. My last post provided a mock argument that was intentionally bad because I wanted it to mimic the kind of arguments you put forth. In other words, one that is entirely baseless and without a single shred of evidence. And no, I am asking you to provide something of substance that suggests that Watain compromised their artistic vision for mass commercial appeal to which you haven't provided anything of yet. Everything you've said so far has just been exaggerated nonsense built from your own desire to slander Watain, simply because you no longer like their music. In essence, you've latched onto a faulty perception of the band and you cannot admit to it.

Watain are no where near as successful or well off as you think they are, nor is any black metal band for that matter, as I've already explained. But this apparently compromised and 'accessible' rendition of the same band exists to boost album sales, you say? Over the last few years, who is honestly making serious money from album sales? And your answer is a Swedish black metal band?

You underestimate the importance of live performances, and promotion which, again, is part of the label's job and major part of the reason why any band signs to a label in the first place, not just Watain. Watain have built a solid reputation live and have toured internationally, and they've been promoted decently. But I'm sure selling a few thousand copies of each album is Watain's primary concern.

I think Watain are a good band but no by no means a favourite of mine. My primary motivation for continuing on in this debate is to expose idiocy and debunk the ignorant perceptions that people like you continue to perpetuate.

 

[Thralldom]

You can read but you cannot comprehend anything you read. My last post provided a mock argument that was intentionally bad because I wanted it to mimic the kind of arguments you put forth. In other words, one that is entirely baseless and without a single shred of evidence. And no, I am asking you to provide something of substance that suggests that Watain compromised their artistic vision for mass commercial appeal to which you haven't provided anything of yet. Everything you've said so far has just been exaggerated nonsense built from your own desire to slander Watain, simply because you no longer like their music. In essence, you've latched onto a faulty perception of the band and you cannot admit to it.

Watain are no where near as successful or well off as you think they are, nor is any black metal band for that matter, as I've already explained. But this apparently compromised and 'accessible' rendition of the same band exists to boost album sales, you say? Over the last few years, who is honestly making serious money from album sales? And your answer is a Swedish black metal band?

You underestimate the importance of live performances, and promotion which, again, is part of the label's job and major part of the reason why any band signs to a label in the first place, not just Watain. Watain have built a solid reputation live and have toured internationally, and they've been promoted decently. But I'm sure selling a few thousand copies of each album is Watain's primary concern.

I think Watain are a good band but no by no means a favourite of mine. My primary motivation for continuing on in this debate is to expose idiocy and debunk the ignorant perceptions that people like you continue to perpetuate.

When did I say that Watain was successful or well-off?

I stated that I dislike their change in style and that it is my personal opinion that they were motivated at least in part to change by a desire to expand their fan base. There is no need for me to support my opinion with evidence beyond what I already said when it has been presented as my opinion throughout the conversation.

You keep saying that I dislike successful bands, claiming that I think that bands are successful an talking about irrelevant shit for some reason. I really don't get why I need to justify my opinion more than I already have.

I don't enjoy Watain's new music and I explained my reasons why. I don't need to provide evidence that I dislike them and believe that they want to broaden their success and fanbase by changing styles.

 

[Thralldom]

In short, explain to me why I need to give you evidence that it is my personal belief that Watain's new music is bad and more accessible to a broader fanbase.

I'd like to know, as this is all that I've been saying. Your attempts to argue with my opinion as though it infringes upon yours in any way are valiant but very ridiculous.

 

[Vossyrus]

You have made numerous posts in this thread implying that you think Watain compromised their original artistic vision in order to make a more commercial product to boost album sales. Basically, you think they've sold out. All you have to offer in defense of your claim is that it's simply an opinion. Watain have already commented on the issue many times and have denounced these allegations. Plus, your opinion lacks logic and a foundation for it to be considered valid or even a point worth making in the first place.

If you don't like their newer music that's fine, but again, all you are doing right now is slandering a band with misinformation and choosing to remain ignorant to everything that flies in the face of your claim. Like I said, I can just as easily say in my opinion Dissection were huge sellouts for the reasons I listed previously - do you think my mock argument is valid or worth the debate? And anyways, you previously stated that you only listened to one song off Lawless Darkness...need I even comment on this? You've clearly thrown any credibility out the window with your many posts on the topic.

 

[Necroraven]

Lawless Darkness does sound more accessible than Rabid Death's Curse, not that it makes much difference in my book, but anyway. Of course, Watain has developed a more commmercial image with their new albums, the "movie" and all, but it's not like it makes them any worse. Watain is still good and quite original band, even if I like their early work best.