Black Metal.

[KevenZ]

the only band being influenced I can think of is Emperor, IX Equilibrium.

 

[Life Sucks]

Mercyful Fate are considered black metal probably because of the facepaint and the satanic lyrics. Musically, they play the same kind of metal Judas Priest play.

 

[Alter]

Mercyful Fate is black metal. Period.

 

[Life Sucks]

Mercyful Fate is like Judas Priest with facepaint and satanic lyrics. Maybe black metal by early 80s standards, but not today.

 

[Zephyrus]

Anyone who repudiates Mercyful Fate's status as Black Metal is guilty of presentism. People too often take what was in the past and apply it to modern standards. The people of the Middle Ages didn't call their times the Middle Ages. And the Byzantines called each other Romans.

 

[Zephyrus]

And remember, metal back then was less stylistically diverse. Therefore the differences between genres back then were more subtle. In 1983, what was called heavy metal, thrash metal, death metal and black metal sounded quite similar by today's standards, but to the ears of those living in 1983, they could hear greater distinctions.

 

[Life Sucks]

Definitions change over time. I remember back in 1990, Sepultura and Kreator were considered death metal (I saw them consistently referred to as such in magazines), yet today they are considered thrash.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Also, before Nec comes in with the historical revisionist argument:

Within the academic field of history, historical revisionism is the critical reexamination of historical facts, with an eye towards rewriting histories with either newly discovered information or a reinterpretation of existing information. The assumption is that history as it has been traditionally told may not be entirely accurate.

 

[skeptik]

You're still a fucking faggot if you think Mercyful Fate isn't Black Metal because of some Norwegian cock suckers using the same phrase. That's all I'm going to waste my goddamn time saying since I'm sick of trying to justify the obvious to people who don't know fuckall about the origins of the music that love so much.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I'm not getting into this argument again but the cock who said Mercyful Fate has nothing to do with black metal is retarded.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

No one's ever provided me with a reason why we can't consider Mercyful Fate black metal only in the context of back then, though. They are clearly not black metal according to the nomenclature of today. Black metal bands all have clear stylistic distinctions from other genres, which make them "black metal". I realize that Mercyful Fate helped to CREATE these, but that doesn't mean they are forever part of that style of music in the context of a definition today. As Life Sucks said, definitions can change. I don't disagree that they are black metal by the standards of the 80's but I'm failing to get an answer as to how they can be considered black metal given what we know today about how it has developed. I can agree with calling Mercyful Fate, etc. proto-BM or first-wave black metal...but genres shouldn't go as far as you're implying they should if the point of them is to make it easier to classify different styles of metal and recommend people new music to listen to.

I understand what you mean; if in 20 years "slam death" was no longer what Nick and I had written about it being...we would be justifiably pissed. But that's just how things go. I think you have to kind of let go some things in order to make facts more accurate.

btw Mercyful Fate has a SHITLOAD to do with black metal. It's just that, by current definition of black metal as a genre, Mercyful Fate doesn't fit in there. It sucks and is lame cuz a lot of 3rd-wave bands playing "BM" are gay or whatever, but that's just how facts develop and how the general public of metal fans accept things.

 

[Zephyrus]

You're missing the point of what Dodens just said. Our current conception of what Black Metal is has been extravagantly influenced by the 2nd wave, to the point that many only accept the Norwegian style as "real" or "true" black metal, when the case is that the definition of the genre extends beyond the context of Norway in the early 90's.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

But why does that "extensive definition of black metal" apply to a genre that DOES have it's own distinctive sound at this point?

 

[skeptik]

Definitions expand, they don't contract, unless knowledge is found to be inaccurate. And it is not inaccurate to say that Mercyful Fate is Black Metal. Their early recordings are as Black Metal today as they were in 1982, regardless of whether or not they sound like Dodsferd and Sargeist and all of the other regurgitated generic swill coming out today. Black Metal always has and continues today to have a great deal of variety in sound. And Sepultura and Kreator can easily be seen through the lens of Death Metal. Definitions are not static, finite, and concrete, as you said. Looking at the music of today and saying "holy shit this doesn't sound like Mercyful Fate" doesn't mean that Mercyful Fate magically isn't Black Metal now.

And that's all I'm going to say.

 

[Zephyrus]

But why does that "extensive definition of black metal" apply to a genre that DOES have it's own distinctive sound at this point?

But it doesn't. Black Metal is one of the most versatile genres in music. It has some core elements, but they are elastic enough to mold to a wide range of templates, from the simplistic to complex, from the overly melodic to the most a-melodic, from the purest rawness to the most symphonic grandiosity.

 

[Life Sucks]

Mercyful Fate greatly influenced black metal in terms of ideology, image, lyrics, etc. But musically, they have more in common with Judas Priest than they do with Darkthrone or Bathory. I guess calling them first wave black metal is quite accurate. But say the band had formed in the mid 90s; no one would ever have called them black metal.

 

[Alter]

Is Velvet Cacoon serious about their music and is it worth looking into.

 

[Life Sucks]

I listned to Genevieve, and was far from impressed. I find the band to be massively overrated. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

No and no.

@ Alter

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I think we can ALL agree that Bathory was the first band to play "black metal" in a similar style to what it has eventually become nowadays.

Genevieve is great.