Black Metal.

[unknown]

I'm not upset, but dictating lyric matter based on region or ancestry seems a little absurd to me.

 

[Hubster]

Phew - guys I didn't want to piss anyone off Thanks for being good about this...

It's not limited to lyrical though. Pagan Black Metal is about lyrics, art and musical style. Drudkh for example uses a shitload of ethnic influence into the very sound of the music itself, even down to the very colours used to print the CD's (look at the colours and designs used on the latest album).

It's not absurd per se, I'm not implying that people shouldn't be allowed to do it, I'm just saying that the authenticity of the expression (aural, visual, spiritual) becomes disrupted otherwise, thus the final expression becomes skewed.

If we have distortion in this expression, the standards of Black Metal itself become compromised. These very standards are what makes (the good) Black Metal as good as it is.

 

[unknown]

okay there I agree with you. Slavonic themes sounds more credible coming from a band like Drudkh and they may be (and are) better at it than say a band from Kuala Lumpur trying to achieve the same thing...my point (and we seem to agree on this) is that the band from Kuala Lumpur should be allowed to sing and present slavonic themes if they so choose. it all boils down to what the songwriter and the listener want.



we agree, I just felt like adding my own ridiculous interpretation.

 

[Hubster]

Thanks man.
My bad for not explaining what I meant.

 

[unknown]

I went to M-A to search if any bands had "American" lyric themes, and the few that turned up seemed pretty shitty

 

[Matt]

Why? It's just the truth man. There's only one indigenous race in the US, all the rest are immigrants. How can an immigrant write Pagan Black Metal in the US about the American land itself, if they are not indigenous? That's like me writing Koori Black Metal, yet I'm an Australian by immigration, and Indian by bloodline! It's a stupid idea! I would be better off writing about bloodline's Paganism, is that is what I am.

Like Krig has suggested, if you have foreign ancestry, then it makes sense for, say for example, US Pagan Black Metal written by someone who has Hungarian roots, written about Hungarian Paganism. You can't write about American Paganism otherwise.

I was just kidding.

 

[hibernal_dream]

(*sigh* I knew this would get people upset.)

It's like me writing Viking Metal: I'm Indian! It's ridiculous, me claiming connection to a culture which has nothing to do with my heritage. It's like trying to be something you're not.

Newer countries like the US and Australia are the only ones which would run into this kind of problem. Older countries with ancient Pagan heritage would not. It's not authentic, not real if it comes from a culture other than that of the origin. For authencity of expression, a Norseman should write Norsk Black Metal, not Asian or something, and vice versa. Otherwise, the higher purpose of Pagan Black Metal becomes disrupted, distorted.

How about just forgetting the 'should' entirely and just saying that whatever a Norseman writes IS Norsk Black Metal. I don't believe it's possible to have such an ethnic link with my past so that the Czech modal scale is imprinted in my genes. If an Asian writes something that sounds historically Norsk, why is that any less him than if he writes using Chaozhou modal theory?

 

[Dazed and Brutal]

I'm not upset, but dictating lyric matter based on region or ancestry seems a little absurd to me.

It's called Nationalism.

 

[Hubster]

I was just kidding.

You bastard hehe

How about just forgetting the 'should' entirely and just saying that whatever a Norseman writes IS Norsk Black Metal. I don't believe it's possible to have such an ethnic link with my past so that the Czech modal scale is imprinted in my genes. If an Asian writes something that sounds historically Norsk, why is that any less him than if he writes using Chaozhou modal theory?

Because an Asian isn't Norsk, just like an Italian isn't Nepalese.

I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say... remember, I'm not talking about Black Metal, I'm talking about Pagan Black Metal.

There is a big difference in the ideological trajectory: I'm not referring to other cultures not using Black Metal as an expression, I'm saying that when it comes to Pagan Black Metal (i.e. their cultures, art, spirituality and so on) their indigenous cultures play a big part in the final expression of the music.

It is one thing to study your ass off about a culture, but you can only understand so much. When it is your blood, your direct ancestry, when it plays a part of your thinking, your upbringing, your life, it is different. There are things unspoken that you just know, and this can be utilised in a Black Metal expression (or any expression of art for that matter). The expression, using the culture as a foundation, is then more true, more accurate, a more precise reflection of the Paganistic expression sought by the artist.

Who better to use the tools their culture provides than those indigenous to that culture?

Were Darkestrah a bunch of corporate types from Manhattan, decked out in Gucci from head to toe, I seriously doubt they would have been able to incorporate the Pagan and gyspy influences into their music the way they have done

 

[hibernal_dream]

Imagine you're completely new to music, unfamiliar with Black Metal, Norsk Black Metal, and yes, even Pagan Norsk Black Metal. Upon hearing Burzum for the first time, would you really be able to tell me that it is expressing Norwegian cultures, art, spirituality and so on? No! The only reason you know if a band today is playing Norsk, Mexican or Cambodian black metal is by comparing it with what Burzum, Darkthrone, Mayhem HAVE DONE. It's the fact that those bands have played "that" sound that you call it Norsk Pagan Black Metal, not because it embodies Norwegian values or whatever. Spirituality isn't convertible into a musical form based on its content - it only IS converted when it IS DONE. Knowing this means that the musical content of Burzum and Drudkh is completely interchangeable - and if they WERE swapped, I very much doubt you would be calling Drudkh Norsk Pagan Black Metal.

 

[Hubster]

Again, you haven't understood what I'm talking about (or again I didn't explain myself properly)...

... I said Pagan Black Metal. Norsk Black Metal I used simply as an example or reference, but my topic is regarding Pagan Black Metal, which of course, Burzum is not as we in this thread all know.

Pagan Norsk Black Metal doesn't exist. The closest correlation to it is Viking. It's an unspoken rule that Pagan Black Metal by definition depicts non-Scandic cultures.

Please realise, I'm not catering for the new listener in my opinion here, I'm talking from the perspective of the enthusiast (which is why I partake in this thread, as there are other enthusiasts to brainstorm with too). Of course, the new listener will come to these sorts of discussions much later in their own quests for more knowledge of the ideologies.

A "footnote": Pagan Black Metal is a new phenomenon, barely a decade old. The major influence, as you mentioned, is Burzum. But also we can refer to Bathory's Hammerheart and also Enslaved, but these are not referred to as Pagan Black Metal as they referred to as more Viking (-related).

I would not say that Bathory and Enslaved are influences directly on Pagan Black Metal. More so, they are an influence for ethnic expression using Black Metal as a vehicle.

The only correlation between Norsk Black Metal and these newer Pagan styles is the musical influence of mid-paced Norsk styles, but that is where it stops: Norsk Black Metal provides for the Pagan styles a musical foundation only, the ideology is completely different.

Like True Black Metal, Pagan styles are equally difficult to absorb, but for different reasons, namely, their warmer textures combined with language, singing styles, ethnic instrumentations and non-Western scales. These characteristics is where they have drastically expanded on the mid-paced influences from Norway.

Other than their two cores, I feel the Norsk and Pagan styles stand squarely apart.

 

[hibernal_dream]

Okay, but I don't see how those little technical errors affect the legitimacy of my response to the essence of your previous post.

hibernal - If an Asian writes something that sounds historically Norsk, why is that any less him than if he writes using Chaozhou modal theory?

Hubster - Because an Asian isn't Norsk, just like an Italian isn't Nepalese.

hibernal - Spirituality isn't convertible into a musical form based on its content - it only IS converted when it IS DONE. Knowing this means that the musical content of [pagan black metal band #1] and [pagan black metal band #2] is completely interchangeable

What follows?

 

[Hubster]

It's not about spirituality being convertible into a musical form based on its content, as I never said this was an occurrence. I haven't stated anything in my points to imply this at all, it's your own statement.

What I speak of is expression, representation, not conversion. This is why I said you didn't understand my point because I'm talking about spiritual/cultural etc representation and the legitimacy/accuracy of that representation.

Now one could argue

"who cares about the accuracy or legitimacy?"

to which my response is

"any serious Black Metal musician will find it matters, as the Black Metal expression, regardless of subtype, is always about accurate and honest expression be it Satanism, hate, Antisemitism or paganism. Black Metal doesn't take things by halves, it's an obsessive-compulsive art form, not a casual one."

This very obsessive-compulsive nature is what preserves Black Metal's high standard of creativity and direct execution of message. Thus, the legitimacy of the ethnic source regarding Pagan Black Metal does matter. Legitimacy as a universal concept is a big thing in the world of Black Metal, it always has and will be. To compromise this would break Black Metal ideology.

Remember, when the artist creates it, Black Metal is not created for the casual listener in mind. It is not made to "slap on and sink beers to". It is made for experience, absorption, contemplation, intuition, pondering and knowledge.

Its purpose is for the "thinking elite", this is a big reason why it is the way it is. Black Metal is highly disciplined, and accuracy falls into this discipline greatly.

So with all this in mind, again I ask: "Who better to use the tools their culture provides than those indigenous to that culture?"

** hits tennis ball back to hibernal **

 

[hibernal_dream]

I don't disagree with anything you wrote, but this is music we're talking about. You never relate all this cultural-expression discourse to the end product - how the music sounds.

You said accuracy matters and Pagan Black Metal is a vehicle for ethnic expression - okay. Expression first requires interpretation, meaning the subject has to pass through the subjective agent to be transformed into the medium. A Slav and a Romanian might respectively endeavour to write music to represent their cultural/spiritual past, and both might reasonably end up sounding more or less the same. How to determine which one is authentic? Are you going to say, "oh this is true Slav music but this Romanian band is just not legit"?

 

[George]

I agree with what Hubster has said here. I also think its about time we see some Native American themed Black Metal. They have such interesting topics to touch upon, as well as musical influences that really haven't been explored fully in black metal.

 

[Dazed and Brutal]

Any metal band with Native American influences should be folk metal.

 

[hellwhore]

^ Agree. Atleast not raw and brutal BM. Maybe Burzum-ish BM could do.

 

[unknown]

RUN TO THE HILLLLLS
RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIVES

 

[Vacant_Planets]

I agree with what Hubster has said here. I also think its about time we see some Native American themed Black Metal. They have such interesting topics to touch upon, as well as musical influences that really haven't been explored fully in black metal.

It's already out there actually, and it's quite good too. Check out Mictlantecuhtli who use the Aztec theme. They use the raw BM which is more suitible I believe as NA drumming was generally fast.

 

[Killbot]

I think this is a good appraisal of the scenes. My favorite is definitely USA. I am a patriotic metal fan . I like the minimalism often found within. Black metal with a lot of stuff going on usually repulses me, especially if it has to do with keyboards. My favorite USBM band is Nachtmystium, whose newest album is rapidly becoming on of my favorites of all time.

USBM is one of my favourite Black Metal scenes, probably because I tend to drift towards the more depressive side of BM rather than the choatic.