Black Sabbath - I don't get it

Yeah, I think I know what you are trying to say. Yes, the earliest metal was indeed very very different from modern metal (even late 80s/early 90s metal), and hence can't be compared to it very well. To used the trite cliche: it's like comparing apples to oranges. However, this thread wasn't really about comparing Toni Iommi to modern metal guitarists. I ceated this thread, because it seemed to me that many people on here feel Black Sabbath were THE best metal band ever, and I was curious as to what made them the best in their view.
 
I see it as you have the earth/ground and clouds and black sabbath are like clouds and metal bands are just generally on earth or just below the clouds somewhere and not up there.
 
Death Delirium said:
I see it as you have the earth/ground and clouds and black sabbath are like clouds and metal bands are just generally on earth or just below the clouds somewhere and not up there.
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Yes. Because what you just said seems to be the prevalent opinion on here is the reason why I made this thread. Would you please expain exactly WHY Sabbath are so much better than every other metal band?

I was just playing guitar. I warmed up with Children of the Grave, and realize that I usually warm up with that song when I play. I wonder why that is.
 
Life Sucks said:
Not really. The pioneering/innovation aspect has been mentioned, as well as how some find the music especially moving. Other than that, I've just been told why I myself wouldn't see them as the very best (ie that I am an extreme metal fan).
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Perhaps you could list what criteria you consider appropriate for judging the quality of a band, since innovation/influence/historical significance don't seem to impress you.
 
thisisaformicatable said:
Perhaps you could list what criteria you consider appropriate for judging the quality of a band, since innovation/influence/historical significance don't seem to impress you.
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Well, innovation and influence do carry some weight, but they are certainly aren't enough to make a band THE best, since another band can always come along and improve on what you have done. For instance, Metallica were the first thrash band, but many many bands came after them, and improved upon their thrash sound, ulimately rendering Metallica as nothing more than a mediocre thrash band by the early 1990s. I'm not saying Sabbath are mediocre, since they are definitely very good (their earlier releases, at least).

Here are some things I find are important factors in how good a band is:

riff writing ability
Good riffs are sequences of notes and chords that make sense in their context, and create the music. Often, good riffs will either make you want to bang your head, pump you up or wake you up, relax you or put you in a trance, make you want to cry (depressing emotive music), or simply amaze you with their speed and complexity. A good riff is also usually more than three notes or chords or just chugging out on the E string (Hatebreed anyone?). In less than five minutes, I could teach someone who has never touched a guitar in their life to play something like Smoke on the Water or Wild Thing (these two songs fucking suck and are examples of bad riffs). Good music should be a little bit more challenging than anything along the lines of those two songs, since songs that simple don't sound good to my ears.

compositional ability
Verse chorus, verse chorus pop arangements get boring quickly. The more complex arrangements of metal and classical music are far more insteresting to me. Also, it logically is more interesting to listen to if the song has more than just two riffs.

playing ability/musicianship
Playing on tempo and playing cleanly (no sloppy picking mistakes, missed notes, or only half hit notes). It doesn't have to be super hard to play. However, playing fast and cleanly (whether in solos or riffs) is impressive, but not necessary. This is why tech death doesn't suck.

intangeables:
This somewhat ties into riff writing ability. But some bands can pump you up, serve as an outlet for anger, give you the chills, almost make you cry, and make you feel better when you are depressed. Some bands I presonally can really connect to emotionally: Primordial, Mouring Beloveth, Darkthrone, Forgotten Tomb (earlier material), Suffocation, Deathspell Omega, Burzum, etc.

I suspect that the last category plays a large role with people who feel Sabbath is the best. Though their songs personally don't move me emotionally in any way.
 
OK, your criteria is largely subjective and the parts that aren't are largely retarded. You could have just said "bands that conform to my personal musical preferences are good, bands that don't are bad." If best is just another word for favourite then this discussion is destined for failure.
 
thisisaformicatable said:
OK, your criteria is largely subjective and the parts that aren't are largely retarded. You could have just said "bands that conform to my personal musical preferences are good, bands that don't are bad." If best is just another word for favourite then this discussion is destined for failure.
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Well, everything is subjective in taste, isn't it? That one band is better than another can never be fact, since taste is purely a matter of opinion. You asked me what I consider to be factors in what makes a band good. And I listed them. Though it is obviously opinion, my criteria for judging a band seem logical to ME. I wouldn't be impressed with the riffs someone who has only been playing guitar for a month writes and plays. It is pretty straightforward, though you may not agree with it.

Now, how about you tell me what you consider to be important factors in judging how good a band is?
 
Life Sucks said:
Well, everything is subjective in taste, isn't it? That one band is better than another can never be fact, since taste is purely a matter of opinion. You asked me what I consider to be factors in what makes a band good. And I listed them. Though it is obviously opinion, my criteria for judging a band seem logical to ME. I wouldn't be impressed with the riffs someone who has only been playing guitar for a month writes and plays. It is pretty straightforward, though you may not agree with it.

Now, how about you tell me what you consider to be important factors in judging how good a band is?
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Influence, historical importance, innovation, etc. have been continually mentioned because they are largely objective - Sabbath has all of these in abundance which is what makes them a solid candidate for the "best" metal band. It makes more sense to recognize bands by these factors than to have a meaningless discussion about "good" riffs.
 
thisisaformicatable said:
Influence, historical importance, innovation, etc. have been continually mentioned because they are largely objective - Sabbath has all of these in abundance which is what makes them a solid candidate for the "best" metal band. It makes more sense to recognize bands by these factors than to have a meaningless discussion about "good" riffs.
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True. One can objectively say that Black Sabbath were the most important metal band, since they were the first and laid the foundation for all metal to come. One can NOT objectively say that ANY band is the best band ever. Of course, I knew that before I created this thread. I guess I created this thread because I was just interested in why most people here consider Sabbath the best band. And I guess it seems that most generally feel that way because of objective reasons (ie their importance and influence) and intangeable reasons.
 
Life Sucks said:
True. One can objectively say that Black Sabbath were the most important metal band, since they were the first and laid the foundation for all metal to come. One can NOT objectively say that ANY band is the best band ever. Of course, I knew that before I created this thread. I guess I created this thread because I was just interested in why most people here consider Sabbath the best band. And I guess it seems that most generally feel that way because of objective reasons (ie their importance and influence) and intangeable reasons.
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Well, we can objectively say a band is the best, because it depends upon what we define "best" as. If we define best as most important, then Black Sabbath is the best metal band. If we define best as personal favourite, then a conclusion can never be reached.
 
thisisaformicatable said:
Well, we can objectively say a band is the best, because it depends upon what we define "best" as. If we define best as most important, then Black Sabbath is the best metal band. If we define best as personal favourite, then a conclusion can never be reached.
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True. But then again, the definition of "best" is subjective, as you just said. Some would say best means the most important, others would say it means the best musicians, yet others would say it's simply what sounds best to their ears, etc. You are right in saying a conclusion can never be reached.
 
On a similar, but related note, I wonder what the extreme music scene would look like today if it weren't for Sabbath? Or if the Beatles had never existed? Maybe it would just be more grind-ish, having evoloved strictly from the punk scene, as there would not have been metal? Or maybe it would just be "extrme rock?"
 
Life Sucks said:
On a similar, but related note, I wonder what the extreme music scene would look like today if it weren't for Sabbath? Or if the Beatles had never existed? Maybe it would just be more grind-ish, having evoloved strictly from the punk scene, as there would not have been metal? Or maybe it would just be "extrme rock?"
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Metal would still exist without Sabbath, but everyone would be praising Pentagram as the progenator of metal and playing "Sign of the Wolf" as beginning guitarists since they were basically synonymous but overshadowed by their peers. Also, Sabbath did not originate the term, so it wouldn't have affected the name.
 
Yeah, I guess, having formed in 1970, Pentagram were to early to have been influenced by Sabbath, since they formed the year Sabbath released their first album. Deep Purple formed earlier than Sabbath, but I don't think they would have spawned the metal movement. The same goes for Zeppelin.
 
Life Sucks said:
Pentagram were to early to have been influenced by Sabbath
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Actually Pentagram is heavily influenced by Black Sabbath just as much as they are Blue Cheer (well maybe not just as much), Sir Lord Baltimore, Deep Purple, and Led Zeppelin.
 
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