Black Sabbath - I don't get it

[Life Sucks]

The great reverence most here show for Sabbath that prompted me to make this thread, also got me to dust off a couple of my Sabbath CDs, and buy two more used that I once had on tape (Sabotage and s/t). Some of the songs clearly show the makings of metal, whilst others are basically hard rock. I like some of the songs a lot, whilst I don't like some at all (the one that goes "I was born with out you baby..." comes to mind). I would say that they do have some hard rock songs mixed in with their metal songs, and it is the hard rock songs that I don't like that much. Still, songs such as Children of the Grave, Symptom of the Universe, Electric Funeral, etc. definitely laid the foundation for all metal to come, and Sabbath are definitely the most essential metal band.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Our widdle boy! All gwown up!

*tears in eyes*

 

[Life Sucks]

Well, I said they are the most essential (in terms of the whole metal genre), not the best. But, no band deserves the title of "the best," as someone else already said. Hell, I don't even know what band I would consider the best.

 

[Satanstoenail]

But, no band deserves the title of "the best," as someone else already said.

That was me. Nice to see you're reading my posts and taking them on board.

 

[CF87]

I can see with certain metal bands why people go ahead and make such bold statements with and you can see why someone could think sabbath,mercyful fate,judas priest or iron maiden are as being the best metal bands for example or even candlemass.

 

[Life Sucks]

I suppose. But still, I maintain that one can only objectively state which band is the most essential or important, but not "the best."

 

[Life Sucks]

I can see with certain metal bands why people go ahead and make such bold statements with and you can see why someone could think sabbath,mercyful fate,judas priest or iron maiden are as being the best metal bands for example or even candlemass.

How about Metallica? They were responsible for one-upping the extremity and speed of metal at the time (by creating thrash). And sadly, many people (mostly who know very bit about metal) indeed think Metallica was the best metal band ever. But IMO anyone who knows anything about metal who claims Metallica to be the best is a fucking idiot.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

How can you say Warning is not one of your favorite Sabbath songs!!!!!!

 

[Life Sucks]

How can you say Warning is not one of your favorite Sabbath songs!!!!!!

It's basically hard rock. I don't hate it, I just think the other songs on the album are better. Black Sabbath is my favorite track on that album

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

It's slow and heavy a lot of the time. The Wizard is also an awesome song.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

How about Metallica? They were responsible for one-upping the extremity and speed of metal at the time (by creating thrash).

Not really, remember they came after Venom who were certainly more "extreme" than they were. Metallica is an example where, unlike Sabbath, the first band in the genre was *not* the most influential, historically important, artistically ambitious or innovative. Which reiterates the point that has been beaten to death in this thread that Sabbath aren't considered among the best merely because they were the first.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Innovativeness isn't only measured by how extreme the music were when it was released. 'Kill' Em All' was about as thrashy as it came when it was released and definitely sat the standard for a long time to come. Though Slayer definitely raised the bar later, that doesn't diminish what 'Kill 'Em All' once was, and always will be.

 

[AchrisK]

Not really, remember they came after Venom who were certainly more "extreme" than they were. Metallica is an example where, unlike Sabbath, the first band in the genre was *not* the most influential, historically important, artistically ambitious or innovative. Which reiterates the point that has been beaten to death in this thread that Sabbath aren't considered among the best merely because they were the first.

Venom more extreme than early Metallica? What defines extreme? I haven't heard much Venom, but what I have heard sounds less extreme, less fast and less heavy and more cheap than Kill Em All.

 

[Kudzu]

People that admire Black Sabbath for the only reason that they were "first" is like wanting to go on a date with an amoeba because she was the "first" reproducing organism.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Innovativeness isn't only measured by how extreme the music were when it was released.

I was pointing out that saying Metallica raised the bar for "extremeness" is false (and I certainly don't see that feat as some sort of badge of honour). Black Sabbath were alone for some time as the key innovators of metal music, Metallica happened to be the first of a large scene to put out a record. As a band they were certainly less important than for example Slayer, who were far beyond them in terms of compositional and conceptual ambition at a time when both bands were developing their sounds. While they were important, I don't see them as being a clear cut candidate for "best" in the way Sabbath are.

Venom more extreme than early Metallica? What defines extreme? I haven't heard much Venom, but what I have heard sounds less extreme, less fast and less heavy and more cheap than Kill Em All.

Welcome To Hell was more raw, more chaotic and more extreme in terms of vocals, image and concept. I think you would have to consider Venom closer to the extreme metal side of the spectrum than Kill 'Em All.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Oh, I agree, then. I still think Metallica were innovative on their earliest days, but not for raising the bar of extreme-ness (which is useless anyway), but rather creating the framework for what would become the 'thrash' genre.

Venom really weren't 'thrash', I think. especially after listening to them a bit over the past few months. More like NWoBHM with a gimmick.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Right, Metallica took the "thrashyness" sporadically present in early bands (Judas Priest, Mortorhead, Discharge, Venom) and made a full album out of it. This would be more notable if not for the large amount of other bands doing very similar things simultaneously.

 

[skeptik]

Do you honestly think that Slayer was "far beyond" Metallica in terms of compositional and conceptual ambition? Frankly, I find that statement absurd, especially considering that a large part of Slayer's concept was nothing more than a gimmick completely opposed by the man barking out the words. Metallica is unjustly sold short in the modern era for their early works. Slayer may have been more innovative in the long run due to their insistence of pushing the envelope of extremity which helped give way to the birth of Death and Black Metal, but I would not say that they were conceptually and compositionally more ambitious merely for milking the Satan gimmick and playing faster.

 

[zoidberg]

but I would not say that they were conceptually and compositionally more ambitious merely for milking the Satan gimmick and playing faster.

oh come on haunting the chapel! haunting the chapel!

but seriously, i think venom already did all that, so that arguement is out of the question.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

...milking the Satan gimmick and playing faster.

Slayer were a great band, you should check them out.