Black Sabbath - I don't get it

[skeptik]

So was Metallica, give their early material a listen.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I'm a big fan. If you think Slayer was a gimmick band then you probably need a history lesson, however.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

*gets ready for epic argument between two people who he didn't think would ever argue this way*

 

[skeptik]

I'm a big fan. If you think Slayer was a gimmick band then you probably need a history lesson, however.

Oh, so gimmick only applies to bands you don't like. Read some early interviews.

Slayer's Satanism was almost as much a gimmick as was Venom's, and if you don't realize this, then you're the one in need of a history lesson. This does not diminish Slayer's achievements, but you have to see it for what it is, and denying the kitschy nature of their and so many contemporaries' antics at the time is denying the history and evolution of the music. Cheeseball and tongue in cheek extremity and shock tactics are a part of the culture, and Slayer was (and still is) no exception.

That said, you won't find me calling Metallica the better band.

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

Stage antics ftw.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Slayer's Satanism was almost as much a gimmick as was Venom's, and if you don't realize this, then you're the one in need of a history lesson. This does not diminish Slayer's achievements, but you have to see it for what it is, and denying the kitschy nature of their and so many contemporaries' antics at the time is denying the history and evolution of the music. Cheeseball and tongue in cheek extremity and shock tactics are a part of the culture, and Slayer was (and still is) no exception.

If metaphorical Satanism is a gimmick, then metal is a gimmick. Theatrical presentation was used to enhance the presentation of ideas (which Mr. Araya had little if anything to do with during the classic era) as it is in most "Satanic" bands. This doesn't diminish the impact of the key themes present (anti-religion, pro-individualism, proactive personal empowerment), and the form of presentation is what makes Slayer the more ambitious artists. Metallica didn't often create the depth contained in Slayer's symbolism, what did they do that outweighs "Raining Blood" in terms of capturing the imagination and creatively portraying a message so closely linked with the ideals of metal? Trapped in purgatory / A lifeless object, alive...

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

Awaiting reprisal
death will be thier aquittance
sky is turning red
Resurgenent power draws near..

FUCK! It's stuck in my head.

 

[Tonka Time]

Sure, I think they are good. And sure, they were the first metal band. However, they are FAR from being a favorite band of mine, and they are FAR from the most talented metal band ever, both in compositional ability and technical musical proficiency. So, can someone please explain to me how so many people think that Black Sabbath are the best metal band that ever existed. And don't say "because they were the first." Sure, it's a fact that they were the first, but I wanna hear concrete evidence that they were the best, because I just don't see it.

*prepares for an onslaught of flames*

sorta like how i feal about mayhem

 

[Life Sucks]

sorta like how i feal about mayhem

You can't really compare the two. Mayhem weren't even the first black metal band. And you don't hear many people proclaiming that Mayhem are the best metal band ever.

 

[zoidberg]

no, but they members are the strangest.

 

[ohiogrinder]

Oh, so gimmick only applies to bands you don't like. Read some early interviews.

Slayer's Satanism was almost as much a gimmick as was Venom's, and if you don't realize this, then you're the one in need of a history lesson. This does not diminish Slayer's achievements, but you have to see it for what it is, and denying the kitschy nature of their and so many contemporaries' antics at the time is denying the history and evolution of the music. Cheeseball and tongue in cheek extremity and shock tactics are a part of the culture, and Slayer was (and still is) no exception.

That said, you won't find me calling Metallica the better band.

I was about to say "So was Venom" but you cleared that up. thanks, I guess?

 

[Life Sucks]

metal bands in order of essential-ness

1. Black Sabbath
2. Judas Priest/Irom Maiden
3. Venom
4. Slayer
5. Bathory
6. Possessed/Morbid Angel/Death
7. the top old school death metal and top second wave black metal

Yes, Metallica and Megadeth don't belong on there, and I didn't include any power metal since I don't know shit about it, since I don't like it.

 

[zoidberg]

metal bands in order of essential-ness

1. Black Sabbath
2. Venom
3. Judas Priest/Irom Maiden
4. Slayer
5. Bathory
6. Possessed/Morbid Angel/Death
7. the top old school death metal and top second wave black metal

Yes, Metallica and Megadeth don't belong on there, and I didn't include any power metal since I don't know shit about it, since I don't like it.

kind of fixed your post

 

[Life Sucks]

kind of fixed your post

I know I am missing some bands, but most of them are lesser known bands that, though pioneering, were less known, and hence not as influential (various NWOBHM bands,Tormentor, Necrovore, Repulsion, Bulldozer, etc.).

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

Wasn't tormentor the name of kreator before they changed?

 

[skeptik]

Yes. But more importantly, it was a Hungarian Black Metal band.

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

Yes. But more importantly, it was a Hungarian Black Metal band.

I knew that to.

 

[~Neurotica]

I love Black Sabbath, especially with Dio on vocals.
I don't know, if you're straightly into black metal, then of course it's not your cup of shit. But as for me - they're awesome.

 

[Life Sucks]

I love Black Sabbath, especially with Dio on vocals.
I don't know, if you're straightly into black metal, then of course it's not your cup of shit. But as for me - they're awesome.

Oh, I don't strictly listen to only black and death. It's just that Sabbath aren't my favorite, and there are definitely bands that (in my opinion) took metal musicianship a step further, and that I enjoy a lot more. I do like Sabbath, and I really enjoy my favorite songs of theirs.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

Do you honestly think that Slayer was "far beyond" Metallica in terms of compositional and conceptual ambition? Frankly, I find that statement absurd, especially considering that a large part of Slayer's concept was nothing more than a gimmick completely opposed by the man barking out the words. Metallica is unjustly sold short in the modern era for their early works. Slayer may have been more innovative in the long run due to their insistence of pushing the envelope of extremity which helped give way to the birth of Death and Black Metal, but I would not say that they were conceptually and compositionally more ambitious merely for milking the Satan gimmick and playing faster.

i can agree with most of that. imo:

Metallica's early works are far superior to anything Slayer has ever done. There's more emtion, to be quite frank. Slayer always pushed the speed factor and forgot everything else. More to the point - it just doesnt sound "real" when compared to Metallica's early albums. Metallica sounded very heartfelt, like they believed in what they were doing. More pure, perhaps; no gimmicks needed. Not to mention James Hetfield's lyrics on Ride the Lightning through AJFA...are some of the best ever penned and far more believable than Araya's.