Critical future of Opeth...

It's those amazing growls the casual listener will find strange, but that's just natural because it's something exotic and you will have to deal with it before you can even appreciate it.

Back in the days I used to hate growls and found them horrible. Then I really "listened" to some old In Flames stuff and then something clicked. Still I couldn't really stand other growls apart from IF, and it took a lot of time to get into deeper grunts but right now I can say I "understand" what they are all about and all the different nuances those singers have can make a difference.
 
Opeth are not still old enough so that their records could be considered classics or masterpieces. And I believe Opeth are reaching their boundaries in terms of popularity.
 
About the "idiot masses and their simple music" cliche':
Music is an art. As an art, its value is annoyingly relative to the listener. Metal fans tend to be very, very elitist in their love for music (I'm sure that the endless amounts of subgenres and sub-subgenres and sub-sub-subgenres of metal are pretty much a direct result of this). This probably stems from our (that is to say, the average metal fan's) constant defense of metal. We've all heard it before:
"They're just screaming! It was okay until it started to sound like he stubbed his toe!"
or
"This is too fast, you can't even hear what they're playing!"

Honestly, it's almost impossible to listen to metal in a public setting without hearing someone say something like this. And so, we take pride in being underground. We deride popular music because we aren't a part of it. We hate on their music because they hate on ours. And I think that's really silly.
Think about it. They hate metal because it's "just screaming." Hell, guys, it IS just screaming. The difference is that metalheads can understand the purpose of the screaming and find value in it.
In retaliation, we call popular music overly simple and shallow. Okay, it probably is. But with a pop-music fan's set of criteria, simplicity is great(maybe simplicity in sound is calming, I dunno). Simplicity isn't universally bad.
My point, I guess, is that musical elitism stems from people not understanding the simple fact that there is no such thing as universally bad music. Please, please, please understand that metal isn't better than pop. It may be personally better. You may enjoy it more than pop. But you disliking pop doesn't make pop suck just like pop-enthusiasts hating on metal doesn't make metal suck.
That said, stop with the whole "opeth will never be highly acclaimed because it's too GOOD for the masses" thing. That's just you guys being angry and you know it! ;)

Annnd, now that I've rubbed everyone the wrong way...

About Opeth never being highly acclaimed in the future:
If you want Opeth to be remembered, then remember Opeth yourself. Let people know about them. Get your children into metal if you can.
Really, whether or not Opeth is remembered in 100 years depends on what sort of music people listen to 100 years from now. Classic rock is well known today because a lot of people still listen to rock. Classical composers, while quite deserving of recognition, will not get very much of it today because not very many people listen to classical in popular culture.
 
About Opeth never being highly acclaimed in the future:
If you want Opeth to be remembered, then remember Opeth yourself. Let people know about them. Get your children into metal if you can.
Really, whether or not Opeth is remembered in 100 years depends on what sort of music people listen to 100 years from now. Classic rock is well known today because a lot of people still listen to rock. Classical composers, while quite deserving of recognition, will not get very much of it today because not very many people listen to classical in popular culture.

I completely agree
 
My point, I guess, is that musical elitism stems from people not understanding the simple fact that there is no such thing as universally bad music. Please, please, please understand that metal isn't better than pop. It may be personally better. You may enjoy it more than pop. But you disliking pop doesn't make pop suck just like pop-enthusiasts hating on metal doesn't make metal suck.

I beg to differ. I can logically prove that pop sucks:


a) I listen to good music
b) I don't listen to pop

--> pop is not good music.

There! I've just proven that pop sucks! :headbang:
 
That's just life. Doesn't matter what you like, someone hates it for inexplicable reason. It has never really bothered me that people haven't liked it, quite the opposite, usually that is the desired effect, hehe. But jokes aside, why would it bother me if people say the music I listen to (or anything else I do for that matter) is stupid? It makes me happy and that's all I really care about (even though it sounds self-centred, at least I can admit it to myself).

I don't need some kind of validation from other people, or some sense of belonging to something important or bigger than myself. My main point on this subject being why bother worrying about how something will be remembered? And as for perceived 'stupid comments', why does it matter if they 'stupid' and you know better.

I didn't mean they are "stupid" coz they don't listen to metal, but coz they are insulting something they don't even know !!! and if they just said it's stupid, not good, a bunch of noisy instruments mixed together and a guy shouting that would be fine, but insulting you every single time they see you, it's really annoying ! I would actually call this some kind of Racism, they don't accept you just coz your music is different than theirs, am I wrong?
and yeah, if you don't listen to Pop music doesn't mean that it sucks !! it's a matter of taste at the end of the day ! and i think as long as it means something to its fans, that it's connected to them somehow, that's fine ! just like some people doesn't listen to Black Mettul coz it deosn't do anything to them doesn't make BM shit music !!
 
Yeah, this 'too good for the masses' or 'musical intellectual' arguements are just stupid. Sorry, but at least the pop fans you are derriding don't feel the need to be overtly pretenious and pretend their musical taste is on some higher plain of existence. :loco: I don't even think this of my most favourite bands.

Anyhoo, SerenityNow! made an interesting point about Black Sabbath not being highly regarded critically during their heyday, but like I mentioned before, they had a relatively high degree of commercial success in the 70s, proved to be influential over time (particularly from the 80s onwards), and did receive critical praise from some notable areas (Lester Bangs for example).

Although you make an interesting point, the truth is commercial success plays a role, and I doubt Black Sabbath will have the same amount of attention paid to them as the Elvis', Michael Jackson's, etc.

Another significance of these type of artists is that they have become part of the popular culture lexicon and almost go hand in hand with the period in time that they were around. I don't see people thinking back to the 00s and thinking of Opeth as the soundtrack to that decade on a mass scale. That's just the way it is.

And SerenityNow! The Grateful Dead are awesome.
 
I didn't mean they are "stupid" coz they don't listen to metal, but coz they are insulting something they don't even know !!! and if they just said it's stupid, not good, a bunch of noisy instruments mixed together and a guy shouting that would be fine, but insulting you every single time they see you, it's really annoying ! I would actually call this some kind of Racism, they don't accept you just coz your music is different than theirs, am I wrong?
and yeah, if you don't listen to Pop music doesn't mean that it sucks !! it's a matter of taste at the end of the day ! and i think as long as it means something to its fans, that it's connected to them somehow, that's fine ! just like some people doesn't listen to Black Mettul coz it deosn't do anything to them doesn't make BM shit music !!

Well, that is life. People are always going to be ignorant on certain subjects and we all do it, especially if it is 'different' to them. I would just ignore what they are saying and not let it bother you. The more you get worked up about it, the more they will keep doing it, because at the end of the day they are just trying to get a reaction out of you. Just ignore it and don't feel the need to have to defend or validate your choices.

Your second paragraph I agree with though.
 
When describing Opeth fans, replace the term "musical intellectuals" with "metalheads" please, because that's really all you have to be, someone who can tolerate any heaviness/extreme vocals whatsoever. Considering every other kid I know that likes Opeth is also into bands like Nightwish and Children of Bodom, Opeth fan obviously does not = intelligent.
 
1. 'Pop music' can be good, and i personally indulge in listening to a few select pop groups. Saying that ALL pop music is bad is just stupid; do you really think this? How much pop have you actually heard? Are you just trying to be different?... I think people like Mikael Akerfeldt and Steven Wilson have a very 'objective' and 'mature' musical taste eg. they both enjoy/appreciate Abba

2. Some 'metal' IMO, is much worse than alot of pop eg. slipknot

3. If someone dislikes/"can't understand" death growls, melancholia, brutality, or any other of the elements present in Opeth's music, that's their problem. I've learnt to give up trying to convert these people to Opeth. One friend said (in response to Damnation), "it's really good, they're heaps good musicians, but it's too sad. I like happy music." Rather than being frustrated with this, my 'release', if you could call it that, is, i like to mention certain bands to him that i love, and when he inevitably and excitedly asks me what there music is like, i simply respond: "unless you're going to really listen to the music, not just have it on in the car or whatever, then i doubt you'll ever appreciate it." (something along those lines).

4. Even if Opeth removed the growls from their music, they would never achieve a large gathering (we're talking Led Zeppelin size) because: A.) people generally only like what's on the radio...it's on in the workplace, it's on the car, it's repetitive...the songs are going to get stuck in your head, and this will always dictate the majority of people's musical 'taste'. Opeth is not repetitive, and i have only ever heard porcelain heart on the radio once!
B.) alot of people are NOT enthusiastic about music, and thus have a very shallow appreciation. Opeth takes time to sink in.
C.) some people seem to almost exclusively listen to one genre, generally in an attempt to gain some form of identity. This works in Opeth's favour to an extent, but what I mean is that, on the whole, the metal scene is probably looked upon as "scary" or "emo" or whatever other rubbish people who have never heard it believe.
D.) Society on the whole, glorifies 'catchy'/'cool' music; it isn't as much about the music itself as it is about the image (this applies to both bands, and fans; the bands are probably/usually very aware of this fact, and use it to their advantage). Most metal is a little different. How often does a metal fan say, how 'catchy' is the outro to deliverance, how 'cool' is it when bands wear corpse-paint?

Most of us know these things- it's a sad/frustrating reality, but let's not let that get in the way of us appreciating other styles of music. Instead, be thankful that you truly can appreciate music like Opeth, and if you can't, but pretend to because you think it's cool or non-conformist or whatever it may be, shame on you, you give metal a bad name.

Hypothetical: How can i take Opeth seriously when the majority of their fans make statements like: "all pop is shit", "metal is the BEST music", "Opeth and Slipknot 4 eva!"

To the "real" fans of great music :kickass:
 
When describing Opeth fans, replace the term "musical intellectuals" with "metalheads" please, because that's really all you have to be, someone who can tolerate any heaviness/extreme vocals whatsoever. Considering every other kid I know that likes Opeth is also into bands like Nightwish and Children of Bodom, Opeth fan obviously does not = intelligent.
Haha very valid point my friend. Well let's keep the musical intellectuals term for those few opeth fans dedicated enough to write all kinds of crap on their forums.:lol:
 
Thanks for responses folks! I wish i could refer to all the interesting posts but...

Funny, it occurred to me, even though i share the skeptical/pessimistic sentiment around here, i actually dont have a definitive opinion on this and i still feel it is an open situation where things could take one direction or another. Maybe i havent said it clear enough, but i didnt mean to ask if Opeth will get mainstream recognition as in becoming a household name, or icon, or voice of generation or...; i was actually wondering if in a very long run (it doesnt even have to be Opeth, it could be some other like minded band) some major critical re-evaluation could happen and Opeth's significance get represented in a new light, taking aesthetic values inherently present in music above anything else (especially above commercial success). I hope it wont be pretentious to say, but after all, history of art has registered quite some instances of an artist getting fully appreciated only after the order of things has changed and art that was initially buried underneath whatever was contemporary gushed forth to induce more profound influence and impact. Therefore, even though i recognize importance of success and general popularity and see it as a factor in "canon debate", i can also see it as (to many surprisingly!) transient and ultimately irrelevant, certainly not decisive element. It can all peel off, like image, like make up, like a mask. The only thing that endures the erosion of time is music...

But, as some have pointed out: is it important at all? Ive been wondering about this since i posted the initial post and as i was reading replies, and eventually realized i actually think it is. Not for any reason really, least because i personally look for some validation of my taste or whatever, but simply because it is - i think lifesaving art matters and it needs to be remembered. It is important because it is, for its own sake, not as a part of whatever agenda. And history, being a selective and often misleading story it is, will hopefully get re-written every once and a while, and different perspectives will exist. Actually that is what i crave for - not some absurd No. 1 spot in some race, but really a place in the whole story, kinda on margin, but still there. I think it matters in the long run; on a purely selfish level, i am happy and self-satisfied enough not to bother to persuade anyone in anything, and i like my music in an independent and sober way, but still it would mean a lot to me if art devotees of future would know of Opeth and hold the band in high regards, many perhaps even using such pompous words as "best ever"... And i think it could happen, just as it might not have to.
 
With Recognition comes shittier albums.

Opeth will get more popular if they continue in the watershed direction. I'd say 9 times out of 10 the more recognition a band gets the worse their music gets.
Furthermore i prefer music like opeth to not be popular, it maintains the illusion that not everyone gets why its good.

If everyone and their mother liked Deathspell Omega then (maybe this is just because i'm an elitist) to me it seems, based on what the general public usually likes, that people are missing things that are going on in the complexity of the music. I like to think that only people who acknowledge quality music for what its worth will find quality music. Popular music is popular because its sold to be popular, the sad thing is fans don't recognize that they are being sold a style. For example My Chemical Romance: People like this music because its catchy to them, certainly not because they have cool concept albums, original riffs, and are doing something different than any other band. Art is one of few things that is exclusively sold because it is popular. This extends beyond music to fashion, graphic art and other forms of creative expression/ideas. You don't see anyone buying a skill saw because its popular, you buy it because of its function. I listen to music that has the function of being the best it could possibly be. I like catchy music and copy cat bands as well, but in general those bands get much more recognition than the bands that are the best they could possibly be.
 
I feel that Opeth will be remembered, maybe not by the majority, but it will in the minds of prog people atleast, and anyone who likes their music currently.

I don't know if they'll get more mainstream in the future, I think they'll get abit more popular, but not anything "super popular" like Slipknot etc. (which btw. is ok music imo, atleast better than many others.)
 
With Recognition comes shittier albums.

Opeth will get more popular if they continue in the watershed direction. I'd say 9 times out of 10 the more recognition a band gets the worse their music gets.
Furthermore i prefer music like opeth to not be popular, it maintains the illusion that not everyone gets why its good.

If everyone and their mother liked Deathspell Omega then (maybe this is just because i'm an elitist) to me it seems, based on what the general public usually likes, that people are missing things that are going on in the complexity of the music. I like to think that only people who acknowledge quality music for what its worth will find quality music. Popular music is popular because its sold to be popular, the sad thing is fans don't recognize that they are being sold a style. For example My Chemical Romance: People like this music because its catchy to them, certainly not because they have cool concept albums, original riffs, and are doing something different than any other band. Art is one of few things that is exclusively sold because it is popular. This extends beyond music to fashion, graphic art and other forms of creative expression/ideas. You don't see anyone buying a skill saw because its popular, you buy it because of its function. I listen to music that has the function of being the best it could possibly be. I like catchy music and copy cat bands as well, but in general those bands get much more recognition than the bands that are the best they could possibly be.

This is rubbish. Complete and utter elitist smeg. Just because something is popular it doesn't mean it lacks in any type of musical complexity. It is all subjective afterall. It is also ironic considering that metal is no different than the mainstream in the way that it operates except that it is on a much smaller scale.