I never said you should rule it out entirely, I am a big Opeth fan. But as Razoredge stated, it sounds, and often is very monotone. It has its place, but hell my favourite example is the band 'Marduk'. Its your stereotypical black metal band. Its just non stop in your face, including the screaming. Lyrics and vocals are my favorite part of music, followed by guitar being a guitar player myself. And black/death does not speak to me lyrically, and even if it did-I often don't understand the words that come out of there mouth. This is where I give Opeth much credit, because he can sound as soft as a snail, and as deadly as a panther, withing the same 2 minutes and I can understand what he is saying either way. I categorize it as cookie monster vocals not just because of the sound, but literally any kid can duplicate cookie monsters voice to a certain extent! All it shows in the individual is they have some fucking power, and props to them for being able to still talk and tour.
Do your parents like SymX? (to all the teens)
- Thread starter sands of the seas
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SymphonyXV
Member
Well I still enjoy growl and BM vocals and I think Chris Barnes and Corpsegrinder are very talented. We can agree to disagree.
razor, I appreciate the fact that you care to listen to the new bands as an "older" fan of metal (atleast when compared to most other forum goers), but when it comes to growling vocals, you just seem to have the same view towards them as your father had towards Ian Gillan, Robert Plant and the others. You don't get the point and that's alright. However, I would be careful about bashing something as untalented crap without studying the subject more carefully. You say that you can't stand the growling vocals so I therefore doubt that you have had interest to listen to hundreds of growlers to gain enough knowledge to find the differences between different styles and techniques of growling and grunting.
By my experience, if anything, it's harder to find a vocalist who can do amazingly good growling vocals than a vocalist who can do amazingly good clean vocals. And that's because there are less people doing the growling and many of the metal bands seem to go for it just because it appears easier when none of the members can really sing (That's my guess anyway). But in reality growling and clean singing have a lot in common. I doubt it's a coincidence that one of the best growlers in metal, Mikael Åkerfeldt is also a skilled clean vocalist.
And my favourite metal singer, Devin Townsend, has so much variety in voice, I find it unbelievable. Anything from operatic tenor to vicious screams and grunts. And you know what Devin said on his forum? The two vocal styles he simply cannot do properly are: 1. Good clean bariton (cause it's not his natural range and 2. death metal growls with the right technique.... He said that he can FAKE them (and has done it pretty well on some past SYL albums for example) but couldn't do it for years on without fucking up his voice. So there. A professional vocalist says that it's easier to sing clean vocals.
I wouldn't personally go as far as to say that it's harder to growl than to sing clean, but I do think that it takes a good deal of talent. There is pitch involved in growling, there is rhythm and articulation and expression as well, it just takes a lot of skill to get it all right (just like in clean vocals, may I add)
By my experience, if anything, it's harder to find a vocalist who can do amazingly good growling vocals than a vocalist who can do amazingly good clean vocals. And that's because there are less people doing the growling and many of the metal bands seem to go for it just because it appears easier when none of the members can really sing (That's my guess anyway). But in reality growling and clean singing have a lot in common. I doubt it's a coincidence that one of the best growlers in metal, Mikael Åkerfeldt is also a skilled clean vocalist.
And my favourite metal singer, Devin Townsend, has so much variety in voice, I find it unbelievable. Anything from operatic tenor to vicious screams and grunts. And you know what Devin said on his forum? The two vocal styles he simply cannot do properly are: 1. Good clean bariton (cause it's not his natural range and 2. death metal growls with the right technique.... He said that he can FAKE them (and has done it pretty well on some past SYL albums for example) but couldn't do it for years on without fucking up his voice. So there. A professional vocalist says that it's easier to sing clean vocals.
I wouldn't personally go as far as to say that it's harder to growl than to sing clean, but I do think that it takes a good deal of talent. There is pitch involved in growling, there is rhythm and articulation and expression as well, it just takes a lot of skill to get it all right (just like in clean vocals, may I add)
When I try to turn people on to Symphony X (adults in their 40's to 50's) I always use either of the Accolade songs...I have turned a few on with The Odyssey though. I ask them if they liked Kansas growing up and then say well Symphony X is like a heavier version with a singer that sounds like the Kansas singer at times and Dio at other times. They usually will at least sample it after that comparison. It's funny but when I let my dad and stepmom hear some of Circus Maximus they compared it to Boston of all things. I guess harmony-wise I can see that.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
Yeah razor, i know you don't like the stuff but to say it's garbage is totally retarded. And talentless? You fucking growl for 45 minutes a night and tell me that's not difficult or take some talent to do proper techniques, etc. You couldn't make it for one song before your voice got fucked.
My dad likes the softer Dream Theater IaW, but I was the one who introduced him to it, he is taking me to the Final Frontier tour, he is obvously aware of Maiden but he despises them, my parents listen to country music, so they haven't heard of Symphony X, but I don't think they'll like them
Well, (timber aside) does it cover a range of musical notes? No it's basically just one note, therefore it's less 'musical' than normal singing. The same goes for rapping. - Btw, I/we were not referring to simply 'harsh vocals' but to death/black metal growling.
To say it's "talentless noise" however is lame, coming from a metal fan.
EyeballKid
Shyamalan'd
The parents are big Symphony X fans and have been to many a SX show. They are both long time supporters of their sons' love of heavy metal. They are also very discerning fans: the mother is very vocal obsessed and loves Russell Allen and John Bush (though not that "non-melodic Anthrax crap"), the father gravitates towards heavy-hitting and groovy drummers (Richard Christy, formerly of Iced Earth and Gonzo from Armored Saint are his favorites) and only knows what he doesn't like ("shrieky and annoying" Bruce Dickinson and the bridge of SX's "Domination").
^ But that bridge is just amazing! 
I guess it's too harsh for untrained ears though.
My dad is pretty much a 70-80's rock lover. He isn't very open to metal at all, and of course thinks all harsh, growls, grunts...vocals are garbage. He however recognizes Symphony X are really talented musicians, but it's just too much for him.
It's about the same thing with my mom, but she's a little bit into metal as well (she said to me the other day she liked Nightwish).
I guess it's too harsh for untrained ears though.My dad is pretty much a 70-80's rock lover. He isn't very open to metal at all, and of course thinks all harsh, growls, grunts...vocals are garbage. He however recognizes Symphony X are really talented musicians, but it's just too much for him.
It's about the same thing with my mom, but she's a little bit into metal as well (she said to me the other day she liked Nightwish).
so destroying your voice is considered talent? as much as drinking is just to get drunk. I don't hate it, I enjoy it in some cases. It requires a skill, but as far as a singing skill goes... There is no singing skill in growls, its not singing!
CantoX
Member
The talent lies in the ability of their voice to withstand sounding so bad for such long amounts of time live.
I dislike the heavy cookie growling rawr rawr vocals as well. Sounds like noise to me and would technically count as dead notes right?
I dislike the heavy cookie growling rawr rawr vocals as well. Sounds like noise to me and would technically count as dead notes right?
Detective Clarence Beauregard
Dehumanized
Yep talentless garbage all ye na sayers, I guess it takes talent to pick your nose too. Its vocally untalented, its not a musical instrument, fine vocalsits are born with a natural instrument. That crap sounds like me when I got fed up with my daughter and her mother having a bitch fest, it didnt seem to take much skill, sorry, I also cant sing worth shit but I could make alot of nasty noise when totally pissed off.
I like harsh vocals they were born during my age, I made a list of but a few names, Russell Allen is harsh vocals he can also sing sweet as a viena choir boy he has talent, he has possession of a great rare natural instrument. Today growlers are a dime a dozen, gee wonder why that is ?
Song sucked Prost, I gave it 31 seconds
I like harsh vocals they were born during my age, I made a list of but a few names, Russell Allen is harsh vocals he can also sing sweet as a viena choir boy he has talent, he has possession of a great rare natural instrument. Today growlers are a dime a dozen, gee wonder why that is ?
Song sucked Prost, I gave it 31 seconds
Krowsnest
Guardian of the Blind
I also believe the voice to be an instrument: A death/screeching voice is a heavy distorted guitar with feedback up the ass and the player is intoxicated. It just sounds awkward and hard to listen to personally; my own opinion.
Whereas, Russells voice can be compared to Romeo's clean and technical guitar playing. Romeo Can play heavy, but never so much that its Death Metal, he can also play very light and melodic, but never as Folk Rock....... Russell can scream violently or sing beautifully.
My analogy make sense? It does in my mind but sometimes my mind plays tricks on me
Whereas, Russells voice can be compared to Romeo's clean and technical guitar playing. Romeo Can play heavy, but never so much that its Death Metal, he can also play very light and melodic, but never as Folk Rock....... Russell can scream violently or sing beautifully.
My analogy make sense? It does in my mind but sometimes my mind plays tricks on me
And most of them sound pretty shitty to me, just as clean vocalists do.
Only one in a dozen is actually good.
But I'm not going to argue about this case anymore. I support growls because I've been able to find stuff where it has been utilised amazingly well and has made the part better than it would have been otherwise.
90% of growling vocals I'm not that fond of. I think about 90% of clean vocalists I've heard have been pretty bad as well.
This is good but you overlooked that course singing, raspyness such as Russell and so many other vocalists is what represents the hard edge of metal or hardrock. The "death" growl stuff more represents some idiot with a guitar in the background on maximum saturation randomly hitting a non muted dropped A flat... amazingly creative
I'm not a big fan of rawrrr rawrrr grunt growl, but with the right music it fits well and I appreciate the aesthetic for what it is (even if it isn't my first choice in style).
Example: In Flames, and to a lesser degree Opeth (I just don't like their music as much)
And the growls in the likes of Epica, After Forever, and the last Threshold album can, when done correctly, add a new dimension to the music.
Example: In Flames, and to a lesser degree Opeth (I just don't like their music as much)
And the growls in the likes of Epica, After Forever, and the last Threshold album can, when done correctly, add a new dimension to the music.
At the same time Im willing to bet the great vocalists of metals golden age would do amazing things over the same music
for example: Lets imagine Dead Reckoning without McDermott and just a bunch of angry cave man howls.... inspiring ?
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