Election '08

[Sorrell]

Well, there ya go. Another one in the books. All the results are in. Some are happy and some are bitter. I doubt that any one of us saw all the results we were looking for, but what a day!

At this point, I don't think a political discussion will hurt this forum. Let's face it, if it doesn't have to do with football, nobody really cares.

OBAMA!!!!!!! After 2000's election, I swore I'd never bother to vote again. I changed my mind this year. To me, this one was important enough to give the system another try.

I only voted for 3 things this year, and 2 of them ended the way I voted. Obviously, Obama for President. California Prop 2, for humane treatment of and living conditions for farm animals. Lastly, California Prop 8, to allow freedom of marriage (and costly divorce) for all.

I'm glad to say that Prop 2 passed and I'll gladly pay the extra cost so that farm critters won't have to endure torturous conditions during their short lives. I'm not a hypocrite, I am a carnivore. I just can't stand seeing an animal suffer needlessly.

Proposition 8 actually passed. I can't believe that here, in "the most enlightened state in the nation" (yeah right!), we would limit human rights to those who fit the description outlined in a 2000 year old novel. Horse shit!
If these people actually spent as much time trying to live their lives as did that young man from Nazereth, as they do worrying about what others are doing in their own bedrooms, maybe the world would be a better, more peaceful place.

...disappointed

But hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad! So, all in all, my voice was heard.

How 'bout you?

SS

 

[Jax]

Prop 2 passed..good. Just because we're going to eat them when they're dead doesn't mean it's okay to torture the animals while they're alive.
Prop 4 appears to have failed..good. Having been a minor who ended up pregnant & had to deal with it, I could see what a nightmare this could've been had it passed. And this is the third time such a measure has failed..give it up already, folks.
Prop 8 passed..Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, California? Really? Are you kidding me?

Measure A passed..good. (seismic retrofit of the hospital that houses San Jose's main trauma center & burn unit - which is also the hospital where my daughter AND her son were born *grin*)

The rest of the measures weren't things I had especially strong feelings on either way, though I see that the transit measures all passed so hopefully they'll quit talking about it & actually bring BART to San Jose now (sad that we have a bigger population than any other Bay Area city - or any other city in the state for that matter, save LA - yet still no BART).

I didn't vote for president because I didn't really care for any of the options..that said, I'm glad Palin didn't get anywhere near the white house, that broad is friggin' freakshow.

 

[koelling]

Wow. No wonder we make good music together...we even agree 100% on the political end. I am so elated with the voting for Obama, and I too am glad to see Proposition 2 pass. What a let down that we think it's our business to tell people who they have a right to get married to. That was the only black mark on the day for me. I know that those for Prop 8 have their sides and are outspoken about all of the horrible things that will happen if we let gays get married,....but this is a free country and, sorry, taking away rights does not promote freedom...it promotes control of personal affairs.. .blah. That makes me sick. Can we now make sure people named Larry or Sally can't get married? I don't like those names damnit! (j/k)

 

[Cecilia5]

I voted for the first time yesterday. The 2004 election was just a few days before my 18th birthday.

I'm a republican, but I voted for Obama, and I am thrilled that he won! I voted for a bunch of other stuff over here. It was a real cool experience!

 

[stryder]

This was the biggest most important election of our lifetime no doubt.

I was a little unhappy that we priovide our prisoners with cable TV and a 1 hour a day of recreation and treat animals with such neglegence, but it passed and the 1 cent per egg increase will help me to enjoy my chicken and scrabbled eggs guilt free.

Prop 8 bothered be because freedom of choice and right to pursue happiness should never need to be voted on.This is a lifestyle choice , can you imagine us having the same choices on music , TV, fast food resturants etc?

Lets all pray that our future is bright and that things turn around.

 

[JMac7997]

I was watching on CNN when they called it for Obama, and I got a huge smile on my face. This is obviously a major historical moment that I'm sure everyone will remember and I was thrilled to be a part of it. When they cut to the shot of Jesse Jackson with tears streaming down his face, I began to cry as well. I know Jesse has become a bit of a joke in the last couple of decades (and quite frankly I get that "Oh Lord, not him again" feeling whenever I see him on TV), but knowing the work he did with Dr. King back in the day and what that moment meant to him was just an amazing reminder of how far we have come as a nation. We still have a way to go, but this is one hell of a step!

 

[Sorrell]

I know Jesse has become a bit of a joke in the last couple of decades (and quite frankly I get that "Oh Lord, not him again" feeling whenever I see him on TV), but knowing the work he did with Dr. King back in the day and what that moment meant to him was just an amazing reminder of how far we have come as a nation. We still have a way to go, but this is one hell of a step!

That was an awesome moment!

Also, may I say that President Elect Obama made the finest speech I believe I have ever heard? It was truly inspiring. I'm proud to have been a part of it.

SS

 

[BadMoose]

I agree with ya on prop 2.

That's where it ends I'm afraid.

 

[Sorrell]

I agree with ya on prop 2.

That's where it ends I'm afraid.

That's what makes the system work; differences of opinion.

Besides, depending on how Obama does, you might get another shot at President Palin in a few years. Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Hopefully, we all won. Only time will tell.

SS

 

[koelling]

I just wish people who were not for Obama would give the guy a chance instead of having that doom and gloom negative vibe. Sometimes, when I hear other people's opinions, I don't hear logic more than I do close mindedness. I really try to go into things like this with a very open mind and not "already decided" because of my party, the news, or the color of someone's skin. I have four Republican (die hard right wingers!) in my office who really do act like know-it-alls, and they were so cocky that their opinions were dead on right (absolutely close minded) so I grabbed a Time magazine with quotes from both Obama and McCain and I did a switch on them. I came into the office and said "Wow! You guys were right about Obama! Listen to this crap!" I proceeded to quote McCain. They were like: "Yeah, what a dick! We'll be in trouble if we let him into office!" Then I said "Now, this...this is great stuff! Listen to what McCain has to say!" Of course, I quoted Obama. They jumped on the bandwagon and said "Now that's what we want as the leader of our great country!" When I told them what I did, they were dumbfounded. Then they got very defensive and pissy. I have only had three conversations with Republicans since Obama was elected and every one of them got defensive and somewhat angry. It's just incredible. I am certainly not trying to stereotype here, but pah-leez. There's so much anger out there. Some of the comments were not even logical...they were very opinionated and one-sided...but, most importantly, very close minded.

 

[BadMoose]

We had a nice chat last night, but hear this. If you need to resort to tricks and lies to make your political points, then I don't blame them for being pissy and defensive. It's a typical liberal tactic, and it certainly is not going to endear anyone to your opinion.

AND, BTW, I am NOT a 'die hard right winger'. I am for a Woman's right to choose, and for stem cell research. I voted Dem in 1992. I can be swayed, but not this time.

I just wish people who were not for Obama would give the guy a chance instead of having that doom and gloom negative vibe. Sometimes, when I hear other people's opinions, I don't hear logic more than I do close mindedness. I really try to go into things like this with a very open mind and not "already decided" because of my party, the news, or the color of someone's skin. I have four Republican (die hard right wingers!) in my office who really do act like know-it-alls, and they were so cocky that their opinions were dead on right (absolutely close minded) so I grabbed a Time magazine with quotes from both Obama and McCain and I did a switch on them. I came into the office and said "Wow! You guys were right about Obama! Listen to this crap!" I proceeded to quote McCain. They were like: "Yeah, what a dick! We'll be in trouble if we let him into office!" Then I said "Now, this...this is great stuff! Listen to what McCain has to say!" Of course, I quoted Obama. They jumped on the bandwagon and said "Now that's what we want as the leader of our great country!" When I told them what I did, they were dumbfounded. Then they got very defensive and pissy. I have only had three conversations with Republicans since Obama was elected and every one of them got defensive and somewhat angry. It's just incredible. I am certainly not trying to stereotype here, but pah-leez. There's so much anger out there. Some of the comments were not even logical...they were very opinionated and one-sided...but, most importantly, very close minded.

 

[Bartman]

I too voted for Obama. His speech after the vote was amazing...

As for his relative inexperience as far as politics was concerned, that was one of the major pluses for me. I really didn't want someone who was already part of the "good ole boy club" in Washington. I wanted a somewhat fresh perspective. Is he going to make mistakes? Yes. Can he learn from those mistakes. Absolutely. The fact that his "track record" is a bit on the small side is fine by me. However, we shall see.....so often a presidential candidates words do not match their actions once in office. I truly hope that this is not the case this time around.

McCain was not for me. He's a member of the Grand Old Party (see:Republican) and I simply cannot stomach more of their shenanigans. His health is also questionable, which leads me to Sarah Palin. How she made it this far is incredible. Really. Matt Damon said it best when he said that her "hockey mom" folksy antics would not fly when sitting across the table from someone like Putin.

And as far as Obamas affiliation with William Ayers....the man was 8 years old for pete's sake. As far as being on the same advisory board many decades later...whatever. Trying to prove guilt by some kind of remote association is ridiculous. How about Palins hubby being a card-carrying member of an organization to promote the secession of Alaska from the US for 5-6 years? We're talking about the HUSBAND of the potential president being a prior member to a separatist movement. WOW.

But, what's done is done and IMHO we have elected the best candidate. We will see....


I'm gonna go eat a moon pie


Cheers,

~B

 

[stryder]

I supported McCain for several reasons ( no more debating) but believe that when the votes are in and a president is elected we must support America , this was NOT a sporting event , it is our future and only an idiot or non american would insult Obama at this point, the racial slurs and personal attacks being posted on line are sickening.I truly hope we can turn our economy around and become the world power we once were. Say the Pledge of Allegiance , understand it , believe it , stand proud for our democracy and be an American.

 

[koelling]

We had a nice chat last night, but hear this. If you need to resort to tricks and lies to make your political points, then I don't blame them for being pissy and defensive. It's a typical liberal tactic, and it certainly is not going to endear anyone to your opinion.

AND, BTW, I am NOT a 'die hard right winger'. I am for a Woman's right to choose, and for stem cell research. I voted Dem in 1992. I can be swayed, but not this time.

Woops, I forgot about our conversation last night. I guess, judging by your reply, I should say I have talked with "four" republicans. See what I mean about the "pissy" crap? I did not attack or say anything negative and you determined I "was". You, however referred to me as "a typical liberal" and claimed I "resorted". There's no trick on this one BadMoose....you just proved my point by your reply and defensive attitude. Oh...and...um...DAMN...I was hoping my liberal "tactic" would endear people to my opinion....um....NOT. Here we go again. Don't assume I think like you and care if I am endearing anyone. We had a conversation. You claimed the Muslims were trying to take over the world and that's why we need to be the bully of the block and get rid of them. You then said we need to control the world because someone needs to. Judging by that hypocritical statement the Muslims should, in all fairness, look at us the same way you look at them. Let's not go there anymore or I'll lose my ability to "endear" you.

 

[stryder]

Put into a example we can all understand.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers, he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.!

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant the men began to compare their savings.

I only got a dollar out of the $20, declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, but he got $10!

Yeah, that's right, exclaimed the fifth man. I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!

That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!

Wait a minute, yelled the first four men in unison. We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!

The nine men surrounded the tenth and kicked him out of the club.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Watch the market drop , troops removed from Iraq and a new surge in Afganistan , and another GREAT SPEACH

 

[Bartman]

This is precisely why I stick to Tequila.

~B

 

[stryder]

BARTMAN FOR PREZ !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JMac7997]

I saw that bar example on another message board and it was shot full of holes. If I can go back and find them, I'll post it here. But if I don't, I still think it's bunk.

 

[promark_420]

I'm all for smaller government and freedom of choice. The problem is that people as a whole can't govern themselves. In a small case, you see this all the time with "how did I get pregnant?" patients my sister had to have a chat with. In a large case, you see this with securities backed by sub-prime adjustable rate mortgages when interest rates are rising. Regardless, government intervention being the inevitable elephant in the living room, I still prefer the pot-bellied elephant (you know, from South Park?) over the full-sized one. Why? When they poop, it's not the size of my couch. I'm all for free markets, but I'm also for full disclosure. I suppose that's a form of regulation, but it's like fine print on a credit card application. "It was all there for you to read, and you agreed to it." One of Warren Buffett's keys to success is "don't buy something you don't fully understand". Why? It could be a piece of crap that looks like a piece of the world's best-tasting chocolate. There is relevance to this rant somewhere...

Ah yes. Spending. I dislike spending. I dislike it of all kinds. One of my big gripes with Bush is questioning why he didn't pay off principle on the loans we had taken out when we had a budget surplus. In my mind we've never had a surplus because a surplus as I see it is having no liabilities and cash reserves.

You could argue that I'm super right-wing because of that and because I'm all about classical economics. The truth is that I'm just stingy and selfish. I'll admit it. I'll type it again. I'm stingy and selfish. Actually, I'm frugal. I spend within my means. I have no debt. That's mostly due to being placed in a fortunate position, but there are plenty of ways I could go into debt. But I won't. Because I. Hate. Debt. I'm also selfish because if anyone doesn't know what he or she gets him or herself into and ends up in a world of shit, that's just too bad. In this country there are more than enough ways to dig out of that. It's not like Mexico where everyone is equally poor and scared for their lives. Keep this in mind.

Obama's win is indeed historic. It's really amazing to know that people who vividly remember segregation get to witness one of their own become President. It really does mean that anyone can take this job. Of course, why anyone would want one of the world's worst jobs is beyond me, but hey--some people get off on the power trip. Will he bring change? Absolutely. It won't be difficult for anyone to bring change to this current situation. Obama is an amazing orator. He may be the best speaker I've witnessed, and I remember watching the "well that depends on what the definition of "is"...is" indictment. Keep in mind 25 years old. His charisma, charm, thoughtfulness and energy have riled up the people supporting him. That's desperately needed. This country needs a boost in the trust of the system. We have way too many cynical kids out there... *shiftey-eye* No matter who won, the economy took top priority.

OK, so here's why I'm not happy he was elected. I foresee a massive wave of long-lasting programs a-la FDR's New Deal. I *hate* HATE HATE HATE seeing any withholding going towards Social Security. It irritates me to no end, and I have athlete's foot... The Social Security program is terribly managed. It's insolvent, and I'm paying for the opportunity to witness its collapse. I was all for its privatization. I voted for Bush to do that. It never happened. Then I found out the proposed rate of return on it. 2%. That's not even inflation. I would *lose* money with that plan. *sigh* That just made me mad. As my brother put it, "I voted for 2%?!? Fuck you!" I'm setting aside 12% of my paycheck to go to a 401(k), and I contribute $100 a month to a savings account and Roth IRA. Even though I'm saving quite a bit now, I'm still worried about retirement. As in, I wonder if I *can* retire. I do not count on Social Security's existence when I reach retirement age. Bush made one of the dumbest fiscal moves by going to war. He should have used the paper surplus to pay off principle on foreign loans. But no. It was used to pay for a meaningless war. So now that we have Obama in office, I foresee a lot of poorly managed, long-lasting Social Security-like programs. Most programs are poorly managed. Think about how much time you waste at your job. I know I can waste an entire day on the Internet. Slacking is out there everywhere. But I hope I'm wrong. I really do.

I'm also afraid of my job in 2010. This is because my bosses (i.e. the partners) make well over $250,000 a year. You see, in a partnership the profits and losses go directly to the owners known as partners. The company doesn't pay taxes. So now my bosses will have an effective 55% tax rate. If they can't afford to stay solvent, guess what? "If Obama gets elected, we'll have to cut two employees"--my boss. That's probably me because I was hired in January of this year.

I'm worried for these two reasons. Foreign policy? We'll be fine. Obama has that charisma and charm. Energy? We'll be fine. But I support nuclear and not ethanol. Ethanol is one of the most inefficient fuels ever discovered. Why the big push for it? Renewability. It's made from corn. That's it. I think we should find a way to improve existing renewable sources of energy such as wind and solar so that we can sell the ideas to other countries. How badass would that be for America? "Not only did we find a way to get off of foreign oil, but we found a way for you to do the same. Pay us $x, and we'll tell you how."

Either way, I think we're screwed in 10 years. This would be true even if McCain had won. This term will bring us out of the recession we're in. That would happen even if Bush could remain in office. Economies are cyclical. Live with it. What worries me is panic. "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" anyone? Do you know how hard it's been for me to convince my dad to keep his money in the stock market? He's giving in just like everyone else. That, folks, is fear. I, however, want to buy stock because I know it will go up. It has to on a long enough time line. I'll buy some as soon as I close. Oh yeah, I'm buying a condo. I'm saying there will be another recession in 10 years, but that's just speculation. Again, I hope I'm wrong. I'm just calling it as I think it.

So my taxes will go down some, but my bosses are screwed. So is my dad. Not only is he a surgeon, but he's also a sole practitioner. If you really want medical reform, you need to put the needs of the supplier first. Guess what happens when doctors become insolvent and retire early. At that point, it doesn't matter what my taxes are.

I will always feel overtaxed and underrepresented. But the truth, again, is that people as a whole cannot govern themselves. This is why I will never fully like any president or government.

I have to admit to feeling some regret about voting for McCain. You see, I didn't want to vote *for* him. I was voting *against* Obama. My real vote *for* a candidate would have been Barr, the Libertarian. Do I fully agree with Libertarians? Not entirely, but they really appeal to most of my ideals.

So, you want change? You truly want change? Elect a Libertarian. My dream ticket: Libertarian former CEO of a Fortune 100 company for president and an economist as veep. The only problem is that these people are too smart to get into politics. Why a former CEO? They spearhead ideas, work with numbers, work long hours, quickly make many large decisions, adapt to environments and they follow through with plans.

I'm probably too young to be this cynical, huh? I should buy The Devil's Dictionary...

 

[BadMoose]

Steve, here is the honest truth. Take it as you wish.

I did not want to come meet with you, or meet your girlfriend the other day, because I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN. Yes, I knew this would happen, but idiot me did not do what I should have to prevent it. I should have known you would probably want to talk politics the day after the election, but we have never agreed on anything politically, so I would prefer to avoid political discussions with you.

But no. We were fine talking about music, but YOU had to bring up politics, an area YOU KNOW we don't agree in, then proceed, in your unique demonstrative way, to make me feel like shit in front of your girl. I tried to change the subject several times, for instance to the movie "W.", but all you could say about that was you wouldn't want to see it unless it was 100% critical of Bush. Nice 'open mind' you have there Steve. I hope you scored whatever points you were shooting for with her, because you threw me right under the bus.