Megadeth vs Metallica

[MrTagoMago]

No

Even if you dont like Voivods music what i said is pretty much the truth.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Metallica, Megadeth, and Slayer are all more or less appropriately rated and deserving of their fame.

The biggest overrated band (meaning the most popular band that is overrated, not necessarily the most overrated band) would probably be Blind Guardian. Boring riffs, shit LOTR theme, were late-comers to the power metal scene, even Hansi's voice doesn't do that much for me even if it's distinctive and strong. A handful of great choruses is the best I can say about them.

 

[Phylactery]

No that would be Metallica and Megadeth as well as Slayer and Anthrax. Voivod in comparison have been a much more innovative and creative group yet still manage a relitively consistent discography. While much of their work is more of an aquire taste most of their albums are of brilliant execution and quality.

So Slayer, one of if not the most influential extreme metal bands ever is not creative or innovative? I'd love to know where I can hear something like Hell Awaits before 1985.

You can shit on Metallica, Megadeth and Anthrax (lol, why even bother mentioning these?) as much as you like. Just leave Slayer out of it.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Metallica was as influential and innovative as Slayer. You wouldn't have the same Slayer without Metallica (and Exodus).

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I think it's important to note in these discussions that while Voivod was very creative, they were also massively influenced by Die Kreuzen and other early post-hardcore acts. I'd say that Metallica and Slayer pioneered more techniques that helped to define metal, but that Voivod deserves props as potentially the first truly experimental metal band (although maybe Celtic Frost still has them beat slightly).

 

[Phylactery]

Well I agree (except maybe on the influential part), I just don't give enough of a shit about them to argue their case.

 

[MrTagoMago]

So Slayer, one of if not the most influential extreme metal bands ever is not creative or innovative? I'd love to know where I can hear something like Hell Awaits before 1985.

You can shit on Metallica, Megadeth and Anthrax (lol, why even bother mentioning these?) as much as you like. Just leave Slayer out of it.

I didnt say those bands werent innovative i meant just not to the same degree Voivod were. All of the big four bands ran out of steam much faster while Voivod continued to evolve. I mean to me Hell Awaits isnt that unique for 1985 since you had bands like Bathory with The Return and Possessed with The seven churches. You also had demo bands making more evil and extreme music at the time. I think it was the standard evolution. That said in 1988 what metal albums sounded anythinglike Dimension Hatross?

Also imo Voivods demo To the death was more brutal and intimidating than Hell Awaits. It was recorded live in january of 1984.

 

[MrTagoMago]

I think it's important to note in these discussions that while Voivod was very creative, they were also massively influenced by Die Kreuzen and other early post-hardcore acts. I'd say that Metallica and Slayer pioneered more techniques that helped to define metal, but that Voivod deserves props as potentially the first truly experimental metal band (although maybe Celtic Frost still has them beat slightly).

Obviously Voivod didnt effect the evolution of metal as much as those bands but i still say they were more innovative and creative as a metal band. The first tryuly experimental metal artist is Paul Chain to my knowlege. Tetri Teschi in Luce Viola was recorded in 1982 though not released till 1989.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Hell Awaits is far ahead of anything on the first two Bathory albums in terms of riffing technique and composition. Seven Churches is a fair contender, but inconsistent; maybe half the songs can match up against early Slayer, the other half are basically second-rate Exodus copies. Plus, Hell Awaits was written and demoed close to a year before it was printed to record as well iirc. Early Voivod was maybe more intense, possibly even faster than early Slayer, but it was basically really sloppy post-Motorhead/Venom/Discharge stuff. There were many hardcore bands doing more or less the same thing at the same time or earlier.

I haven't heard that Paul Chain album, should check it out.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Hell Awaits is far ahead of anything on the first two Bathory albums in terms of riffing technique and composition. Seven Churches is a fair contender, but inconsistent; maybe half the songs can match up against early Slayer, the other half are basically second-rate Exodus copies. Plus, Hell Awaits was written and demoed close to a year before it was printed to record as well iirc. Early Voivod was maybe more intense, possibly even faster than early Slayer, but it was basically really sloppy post-Motorhead/Venom/Discharge stuff. There were many hardcore bands doing more or less the same thing at the same time or earlier.

I haven't heard that Paul Chain album, should check it out.

I wasnt discussing quality there I was discussing how unique or innovative Hell Awaits was. If you think its better than those albums then thats fine i just dont think it was that unique I mean bands were going in that direction even if Slayer didnt exist.

I should mention if you just listened to the first two Voivod albums (War and pain and Rrroooaaarrr) they pale in comparison to that Demo. While their early stuff was very hardcore punk influenced it wasnt just the same thing those artists were doing. I see nothing wrong with being kinda sloppy it adds to the aggression imo.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Slayer and Bathory also don't sound alike, so using Bathory's existence as an example of why Hell Awaits wasn't unique doesn't make sense.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Slayer and Bathory also don't sound alike, so using Bathory's existence as an example of why Hell Awaits wasn't unique doesn't make sense.

They dont sound alike but Hell awaits and The Return share certain musical and structural simularities. I mean i really dont know what everyone here thinks makesalbums or artists similar. Someone tried to tell me Metallica - Kill em all was more brutal than Riistetyt - Valtion vankina. Sometimes i get the impression you guys are way too biased.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Sure, you would still probably have death and black metal even if Slayer didn't exist, even if perhaps it took a little longer or came about a different way. Same way that the heaviest psych rock bands would have eventually created metal even if Black Sabbath died before the S/T. Doesn't change the fact that Slayer was the first to bring multiple techniques and styles of extreme metal songwriting to the table. They were a revolutionary step. Early Voivod was more iterative.

And early Bathory does have some similarities with Slayer, although it wouldn't be until BFD that Quorthon would become good enough of a musician to actually player Slayer riffs.

 

[Phylactery]

I was about to say the same thing. Even though I love the raw, dirty and sloppy sound of Bathory and The Return, they clearly sound far more like Venom than Slayer. I've got to agree with HamburgerBoy, Hell Awaits was far ahead in terms of riffing style and composition. Slayer pretty much pioneered riffing techniques in metal. The reason it might not sound as unique as Voivoid is because thousands of extreme metal bands have been ripping off and building on the sounds of early Slayer for years (specifically Hell Awaits which I would argue was more influential on extreme metal than Reign in Blood.)

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I think the best argument to say that Hell Awaits wasn't that ahead of its time would be to say that Show No Mercy and Haunting the Chapel already contained songs with similar techniques, which is where Slayer was at their most cutting-edge. Hell Awaits was more like a culmination of all the best ideas from those two albums into a full fledged early extreme metal album with all the NWOBHM and speed/thrash purged. Possessed, Sodom, Bathory, etc had already been listening to Slayer for two years by the time 1985 rolled around.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Sure, you would still probably have death and black metal even if Slayer didn't exist, even if perhaps it took a little longer or came about a different way. Same way that the heaviest psych rock bands would have eventually created metal even if Black Sabbath died before the S/T. Doesn't change the fact that Slayer was the first to bring multiple techniques and styles of extreme metal songwriting to the table. They were a revolutionary step. Early Voivod was more iterative.

And early Bathory does have some similarities with Slayer, although it wouldn't be until BFD that Quorthon would become good enough of a musician to actually player Slayer riffs.

Yourr bias against Bathory shows. Also Parrabellum were playing blackened death metal since 1984. Besides even if Hell Awaits was revulutionary itsjust one album. The band would go way down hill afterwards. You cant say South of heaven or anything afterwards is revolutionary. Voivod continued to innovate and make themselves better as a band while Slayer among most other thrash bands went downhill after a few albums.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

The similarities of Hell Awaits and The Return...... aren't strong enough that you could say Slayer and Bathory sound much alike. They're clearly extremely different. They obviously have some common elements, but the albums don't sound the same and the song structure and recording style are very dissimilar.

I'll agree with HamburgerBoy that Under the Sign of the Black Mark is where Quorthon really stepped up musically, but that album also clearly doesn't sound like a Slayer album.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Not bias, objective observation. Listen to The Golden Walls of Heaven and Hell Awaits back to back and tell me you don't hear shared riffing. Or shared riffs between Chemical Warfare and The Return of the Darkness and Evil, the difference being that Slayer could play it much faster and tighter.

True, Slayer's creative peak was between 1983 and 1986, but that's still a long run. I'd say Voivod's was 84-89 at the most generous, more realistically limited to the three 87-89 albums, not a huge difference in duration either way. Virtually all rock bands shoot their creative loads within their first decade of existence.

 

[Phylactery]

He doesn't like Bathory but I do (a lot, one of my favourite bands even) and I still disagree with what you're saying. Slayer have 3 albums and an EP that easily rank among the best metal of all time, it doesn't matter that they never recaptured that brilliance again, that's more than most bands have. (And I don't personally consider Reign in Blood to be as brilliant as the first 2 albums and EP, but I'm not going to deny its influence).

 

[MrTagoMago]

Not bias, objective observation. Listen to The Golden Walls of Heaven and Hell Awaits back to back and tell me you don't hear shared riffing. Or the same chord progressions between Chemical Warfare and The Return of the Darkness and Evil, the difference being that Slayer could play it much faster and tighter.

True, Slayer's creative peak was between 1983 and 1986, but that's still a long run. I'd say Voivod's was 84-89 at the most generous, more realistically limited to the three 87-89 albums, not a huge difference in duration either way. Virtually all rock bands shoot their creative loads within their first decade of existence.

Id say while Killing Technology, Dimension Hatross, and Nothingface are arguably the bands peak those certainly arent the only albums of theres that are great. The Outer Limits was amazing. Target Earth and Post Society are great comeback releases.

He doesn't like Bathory but I do (a lot, one of my favourite bands even) and I still disagree with what you're saying. Slayer have 3 albums and an EP that easily rank among the best metal of all time, it doesn't matter that they never recaptured that brilliance again, that's more than most bands have. (And I don't personally consider Reign in Blood to be as brilliant as the first 2 albums and EP, but I'm not going to deny its influence).

I would say that 3 great albums and an ep are only a lot in the realm of thrash.