Metal >/< Classical? Metal Vs. Classical?
- Thread starter anonymousnick2001
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Katabasis
Member
hehehe, even though 'MightyA' often pisses me off, I do have to agree.
In my opinion, Dream Theatre is the most overrated band out there. *shrugs* But that's just my opinion, and I'm quite certain that you would also think that a lot of music I listen to is utter tripe; but that's subjectivity for you.
In my opinion, Dream Theatre is the most overrated band out there. *shrugs* But that's just my opinion, and I'm quite certain that you would also think that a lot of music I listen to is utter tripe; but that's subjectivity for you.
I considered it. I would have probably used it, but I dunno...Cryptopsy just made sense? Ever ponder about something for a while and have thigns just...click?
Snyper
Warm and Fuzzy
why are people still suggesting things whens hes done this a long time ago............................
The Scourge
Suicide Machine
It just blows me away that people think that real counterpoint is exemplified through Ihsahn's questionable style(Emperor). His counterpoint is careless, unstructured, and for the most part, dismissable. Now, don't get me wrong, as Emperor do have some truly brilliant moments. But for the most part, I find it to be downright laughable. And don't get me started on Peccatum.....
mot-
Look behind you!
Im not an expert regarding musical theory, but of what "quality" is opeth's counterpoint-work ?
Opeth have written some pretty good counterpoint passages. On albums besides MAYH(only cause Mikael buried the bass on that one's production ), bass provides a harmony or polyrhythmic element to the guitars, which are either thirded or octaved, or playing complimentary chords.
It's the randomness of their composing style that is their sole downfall.
), bass provides a harmony or polyrhythmic element to the guitars, which are either thirded or octaved, or playing complimentary chords.It's the randomness of their composing style that is their sole downfall.
ControlledChaos
Unbleeding
Notice that I said the closest you'll be able to come to what he's looking for. Isahn's counterpoint is not the perfection of Bach no, but it IS adventurous and solid, and is used very well in a metal context on Prometheus. No other band has done this within the scene and while experimenting he was also able to produce some great songs and an altogether fantastic album using it.The Scourge said:
It would be easy to talk extreme counterpoint. Schönberg, Prokofiev, Bach, ... I was merely bringing up that it does exist in metal (in one instance) and might intrigue a classical mind.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Opeth has no discernable counterpoint in it that I have ever noticed. Melodies with accompaniment are exactly that, and are really the opposite of counterpoint when you theoretically examine it. Countrapuntal music is predominantly polyphonic with the texture and harmony of the pieces being determined by the relationship and intermingling of independant voices. Prometheus showcases this to a great extent, Opeth is homophonic music.
I disagree to an extent. Prometheus has a great deal of excellent counterpoint, yes.
However, Opeth do more than accompany their melodies. A consistent counterpoint is not necessary. For instance, Mozart and Beethoven did not use counterpoint throughout entire pieces or such, only passages(Mozart did this more than Beethoven). There are examples within their music where the music will branch into a polyphonic spree(forgve the pun).
However, Opeth do more than accompany their melodies. A consistent counterpoint is not necessary. For instance, Mozart and Beethoven did not use counterpoint throughout entire pieces or such, only passages(Mozart did this more than Beethoven). There are examples within their music where the music will branch into a polyphonic spree(forgve the pun).
KielbasaSausage
YARRRRG
The Scourge
Suicide Machine
Excellent rebuttal. Well...........you call Ihsahn's style adventurous, and I suppose I could concede to that notion. But it really bothers me to hear some parts of that album(prometheus), because it would really appear that he is trying to follow the rules of counterpoint through a Bach-esque vehicle. He really exemplifies that he has only an incredibly modest knowledge of theory, and his "fugues" and "canons" are ultimately failures as they simply have a beginning, and end, and just a whole lot of nonsense in between. If you want "adventurous" counterpoint, and by that I mean what Ihsahn attempted to do with melding traditional ideas with modern sonic musings, then look no further than Ferrucio Busoni, preferably his piano concerto and later. But as far as metal goes, not one band has impressed me thoroughly when counterpoint, that is, traditional counterpoint is being used as a demonstrable commodity.ControlledChaos said:
Except maybe for Sigh. You mention Schonberg(overrated in my opinion; Alban Berg was the REAL gem of the Second Viennese School), so perhaps you have heard the song "12 Souls" off of the Hail Horror Hail album? That is the only occurence of serialist music I have ever found in metal, at least deliberately anyways.
really******loud
Lettice .Ain't no RABBIT.
Simply put, adults have a hearing pain threshold different to that of a younger person, so what sounds good to the young might not sound good to the old and vice-versa. We associate the pain threshold experence as not liking what we hear.Eg finger nails down a chalk board sounds bad because of this pain threshold. Loudness has nothing to do with this either. Either this or hes a real wanker!!!
wankerness
Member
Yeah, Kayo Dot might be your best try, unless he considers Jazz crap too. There's definitely nothing approaching Beethoven maturity in Opeth.Biddinger said:
AS FOR PAIN OF SALVATION
I actually played In the Flesh for a jazz professor once. He liked the production, and part of that instrumental section in the middle with the weird time sigs that rules. Otherwise he said it was pretty lame.
OPETH has NOTHING approaching musically mature in the classical ideals of the word. I'm not trying to be a jackass, it's just a fact...their songs are mostly riff collages and weren't written with any ideas of functional harmony or anything. If your teacher's into beethoven, he probably wouldn't like anything that's atonal (or even approaching atonal)...if he's into stuff more like mid-period Debussy then you have a chance with the Opeth maybe cause Debussy also didn't use "FUNCTIONAL" harmonies and did stuff for the way it sounds. If you REALLY REALLY WANT to use Opeth, you should try doing something off Still Life like Godhead's Lament, that one maintains a sense of cohesion (unlike many of their other songs!). Anything off Orchid or Morningrise would be an absolutely awful idea, ESPECIALLY Black Rose Immortal. Actually TO BID YOU FAREWELL has a tiny chance of working, but I'd guess that wouldn't be METAL enough.
Honestly, though, I think you're completely screwed. The Kayo Dot is probably your best bet (and not if he doesn't respect jazz!), and that Agalloch song is EXTREMELY SIMPLE harmonically so that would probably be bad. It at least sounds semi-mature, but it's mature in a way that would probably say to him "WE THINK WE'RE MAKING MATURE GOOD MUSIC BUT WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO."
All those neo-classical/melodic death bands would be a TERRIBLE idea honestly, they're so damn cheesy and their chord progressions are incredibly cheap. Symphony X also wouldn't work, I'm sure, especially not if you played one of those songs with the videogame style keyboard "orchestration."
I wish I'd seen this thread WAY EARLIER.
EDIT: I actually read the whole thread now, SO my message is totally worthless. That's a great story!
Innbydelse
Wielder of the 7-string
Actually, he was quite impressed by Symphony X. The chessiness is not as important as the composition, and they're pretty good. They are neoclassical, anyway.
MasterOLightning
Optimator
I think Overture 1928 would have represented DT very well. The SFAM album as a whole, is just amazing composition.
Anyone who said A Fair Judgment should be shot. The intro is really not good, and the outro is terrible.
Anyone who said A Fair Judgment should be shot. The intro is really not good, and the outro is terrible.
Scenes From A Memory is almost DT's worst composition. Mindless wankery, idiotic repetition opposed to returning themes, and...it goes on.
Anyway, I hope everyone knows how much of a field day anus.com had with this thread.
I feel kinda stupid.
Anyway, I hope everyone knows how much of a field day anus.com had with this thread.
I feel kinda stupid.
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