Music: The Most Intellectually Demanding Artform?

I'm sure you're all very happy with yourselves for being so spiffingly clever, but why don't you fuck off to a forum where people are interested in your laughable attempts at adult discourse. Only the very stupidest here are convinced you aren't blithely cutting and pasting your dreary opinions from an external source.

Christ, even Metal Paddy comes across with more integrity than you pseuds.

This forum is for music discussion. If you guys can't get laid, don't make the rest of us suffer for it.
 
Laeth MacLaurie said:
After all, it is entirely possible to disprove a metaphysical supposition...

Probably not but it's entirely possible to show a metaphysical supposition to be nonsensical.

This is the problem with the Anglo-American liberal tradition and its doctrinaire adherence to formal logic. It isn't philosophy. It isn't an exploration of ideas. It's a semantic pissing contest in which the structure of an argument is made to be more important than its content.

Funny how a "semantic pissing contest" and examining the structure of an argument are completely unrelated. Also, insofar as philosophy involves argument about and exploration of ideas, formal logic applies. Also, your characterization of Anglo-American philosophy is simply false and it's indicative of your lack of knowledge of Anglo-American philosophy.
 
Laeth MacLaurie said:
And Newton thought you could turn lead into gold, does that invalidate the Engligtenment tradition.




Which I suppose makes political pollsters brilliant philosophers, right?



After all, it is entirely possible to disprove a metaphysical supposition... This is the problem with the Anglo-American liberal tradition and its doctrinaire adherence to formal logic. It isn't philosophy. It isn't an exploration of ideas. It's a semantic pissing contest in which the structure of an argument is made to be more important than its content.



Congratulations, he piled error on top of error. His greatness is surely proven now!



Who are these "most people"? The handful of old-school liberals left on philosophy faculties? The Allan Bloom school of curmudgeonly culture warriors who detest the very thought that absolute answers may not be possible?

And when did it become a popularity contest anyway?



Irrelevant. The real problem with Kant was the dependence of his work on Judeo-Christian moral precepts.



Nevermind that almost every subsequent philosopher outside the Anglo-American liberal tradition drew on the work of Nietzsche...



Why, because he gets a thanks in the introduction? Husserl certainly influenced Heidegger's thought, but Heidegger's own contributions are much more sweeping, far more creative and vastly more influential.



No, that argument is the preposterous one. Heidegger's work is primarily concerned with ontology and the question of being, and goes far, far beyond Husserl's concern with consciousness.


Because the Anglo-American liberal tradition is a big pile of self-congratulatory crap? Secularizing Jesus doesn't make you great, it just makes you a major contributor to the world going down the shitter.



Did I say they were great philosophers because they were anti-semitic? I didn't think so.

Do try not to lurch from one fallacy to the next, ok?

Newton got owned by Einsteins relativity, thats why we don't listen to him anymore so yes it's reason to disregard Newton too. Do we still listen to Descartes Cogito?


What kind of response is that? The man predicted exactly how our history would go down for the next 15 years after WWII. That qualifies as something.

You like Nietzche and you criticize Moore for refuting metaphysics?
"The Refutation of Idealism" by G.E. Moore. See the Naturalistic Fallacy. This is why Western though has so spurned idealism the last 100 years. The English school singlehandedly refuted the cheif principles of Idealism with one little page essay.
Logic was the foundiing point of philosophy for 1.5 millenia. It's what kept it solid for so long. It's was why we called Aristotle, Descartes, and Bertrand Russel philosophers, and not Lucian, Calvin, and Deepak Chopra. It was the embodying language of it. Since the 19'th century (when the two were truncated), it has collapsed into a field of layman meaphysics and retarded ass psuedo nihilist Eastern Philosophy. I attribute this solely to this dissolution of mathematics and logic from philosophy. In fact, the only progress nowadays appears to only come from the English school, and only for linguistics. Progress has been so minimal without this.

People who have positions, people who know philosophy, and people who appreciate much better schools of philosophical thought than rambling German Idealism. In short not the likes of you who tie their own little agenda's into philosophy.

Well fuck Christianity was everyone's problem before 1820, whats new?

Why do you make this assumption that liberalism is counter-opposed to Nietzche? Isn't it most liberals who invoke Idealism and believe in the dissolution of relgion? If anything, I say that Idealism is one of it's cornerstones.

More like the story behind it. Heidegger wanted it in his publisher didn't (because of fascist influence). When Heidegger got discharged he put back in. It was clear he respected the man.

No but it would appear you only have a respect for German philosophers you PERCIEVE as anti-semetic.


Back to the point, first it's philosophy has no relationship with Judaism. I and others give you names... HIGHLY INFLUENTIAL NAMES. Now it's not that Jews have nothing to do with philosophy, but their achievements are minimal. Furthermore, you advocate that an arrogant little prick like Nietzche (who for the most part only has influence in literature and cjulture, and not the philosophical school itself) is in a higher echelon than all of them. It's propostrous.

Given Spinoza, given Wittgenstein, given Husserl. And given that certainly not MOST philosophers are anti-semetic... do you still stick to your original statement?
 
btw architecture is a much more intellectually involved art form because it actually factors in human action, feeling, and general experience, not to mention all the aesthetic qualities of any artform, a need for empirical functionality, and also the semantics of the material used and how it will behave, etc.
 
Blodsmert said:
I'm sure you're all very happy with yourselves for being so spiffingly clever, but why don't you fuck off to a forum where people are interested in your laughable attempts at adult discourse. Only the very stupidest here are convinced you aren't blithely cutting and pasting your dreary opinions from an external source.

Christ, even Metal Paddy comes across with more integrity than you pseuds.

This forum is for music discussion. If you guys can't get laid, don't make the rest of us suffer for it.

Wow, I didn't realize that reading this thread was compulsory. If you feel that our posting in this thread is "making you suffer," it seems that you are the one with the problem.

Cutting and pasting from an external source? Um, fella, I hate to break it to you, but there are really people out there that talk about this sort of thing without having to look it up on the internet. Some people (myself included) study this for a living, and get paid for it. "Pseud"? Clever.
 
Cythraul said:
Funny how a "semantic pissing contest" and examining the structure of an argument are completely unrelated.

Apparently our friend Laurie thinks that semantics and syntax are the same.
 
Necramentia said:
btw architecture is a much more intellectually involved art form because it actually factors in human action, feeling, and general experience, not to mention all the aesthetic qualities of any artform, a need for empirical functionality, and also the semantics of the material used and how it will behave, etc.


Yes, architecture is definetly up there. I took an art history course on it last semester. We had to write about buildings, how they were made, their purpose, their history, atmosphere. Everything, because with architecture you're dealing with more than just sound or sight. That's probably why we got lazy and started making Modern buildings, because it's so hard to do what the Greeks did.

To be safe: That last comment was just an opinion.
 
Necramentia said:
btw architecture is a much more intellectually involved art form because it actually factors in human action, feeling, and general experience, not to mention all the aesthetic qualities of any artform, a need for empirical functionality, and also the semantics of the material used and how it will behave, etc.

teak doesn't spout cute aphorisms in german iirc
 
Kant sucks. That's the only thing I'd like to add at this point. He wrote like a pretentious twat (and was in actuality) and his philosophical concepts contained as many leaps in logic as it takes to believe that the earth is 6000 years old.
 
Yeah, while I do respect his influence and the scope of his project, I have some major issues with Kant as well. He sacrificed clarity for the sake of his architectonic, and was not consistent at all in the language used throughout the three Critiques. Reading Kant is like reading the Bible - you can pull out text to back any point. Though I've got to say, his study of transcendental argumentation was plenty fruitful.

Even worse were Hegel and his ilk, who attempted to out-Kant Kant himself and ended up turning a movement with some potential into an intellectual dead end.
 
Well I wouldn't caal a dead end. Bujt I mean the the offsrping of all the Hegelian' sschols practice has kind of leaad to numerous non shcool related cultjutal points. Exampoe Laurie, But it terms of intellectual and philosophical prowess :"deads end sounds goodsz"

Lauerie I suppose is the closest thing we have eto caaleaaw theis dead aend.

I'M WAWAASTED~!!~~~
 
Cythraul said:
Let's see...

Nietzsche - didn't know the first thing about good argument, made bad arguments against accepted philosophical ideas, introduced a fallacious method of philosophizing.

Weren't you a fan of Nietzsche?
 
RomanBirddog said:
You write off Russell and then advance a Popperian position? You do see the problem there, right? Nevermind the fact that Lakatos et al completely destroyed Popper's position, and the only real Popperians left are people who are completely ignorant of the rest of the literature.

And the po-mo's have shown that science itself is logically contradictory and can claim no special ability to produce knowledge. Your point?

You say that Anglo-American philosophy (by which I assume you mean contemporary analytic philosophy) is self-contradictory, and then you denounce the study of formal logic.

Analytical philosophy (indeed, the entire Anglo-American liberal tradition) stakes a claim to producing objective knowledge, but what it actually produces are populist collections of semantic "gotchas" while ignoring its own assumptions about the nature of truth, knowledge and the possibility of objective analysis. Not to mention the hypocrisy of attacking the "pretentiousness" of traditional philosophical discourse while making ludicrous claims about the "proper" aesthetic approach to philosophy (which apparently means writing to the tastes of the uneducated and grotesquely simplifying all issues so the proles can grasp the concepts presented).

Beyond this, Analytical philosophy aims at propping up the current sociopolitical system, and fails to make any attempt to exist independently of the mainstream of liberal thought in the West. It isn't a philosophy as much as a propaganda arm of neoliberalism. Fuck that.

And you do realize that by rejecting logic, you might as well sit there and babble like an infant, since logic is merely the study of argumentation?

And you've hit upon why a rigid adherence to formal logic doesn't produce anything useful: it doesn't deal with the content of arguments, but with how they are structured. It matters not a whit to the logical analyst whether a proposition is true, but rather whether it is presented in the "proper" format. The Analytical movement spent all of its time playing "gotcha" with the past (and with contemporary rivals) and never got around to you know, presenting any ideas of its own (beyond its implicit support of Anglo-American neoliberalism).

It's fruitless to reject logic and then try to enter into an argument.

Logic has its uses, but it is one tool of many, not the paramount or only tool as the Anglo-American tradition would have you believe. The end product of such thinking is the technocratic utilitarianism that is destroying the world as we speak.

The logical turn after the works of Russell, Carnap, Ayer, etc, is not esoteric or needlessly complicated. Just because you yourself can't understand the symbols or prove the completeness of sentential logic doesn't mean that someone with a bit more intelligence can't. You look at it and assume that it's erroneous simply because you do not follow what is going on. I can understand that - it can get a little intimidating. But please, show some intellectual humility.

I have no problem with the content of the logic, just with the assumption that logic tells you anything beyond whether an argument's structure conforms to the rules of formal logic. It doesn't get at the questions of truth or function, which seem to me to have far more value. There's a reason that the Analytics have tended to focus on mathematics and theories of science while ignoring metaphysical and ethical questions (at least within the context of their formal work, Russell comes to mind as one who certainly addressed ethical questions, at least in a practical sense, but he did so explicitly outside the purview of his philosophical work); metaphysical and ethical questions don't respond well to logical analysis. Oh, certainly they'll occasionally weigh in to criticize the arguments of those not so attached to rigid logical constructions, but they produce no positive contributions of their own to these fields.

I think this argument has gone about as far as it can go. Once someone falls back on slinging terms such as "Anglo-American liberal tradition" and complaining about the "handful of old-school liberals left on philosophy faculties," you can tell that they're basically just a raving moron with too much time on hand, too few intellectual chops to see through this veil of faux-intellectual idiocy, and too few arguments to back up their own weak position. Go ahead, continue being the philosophical equivalent of a little kid who just discovered porno mags.

Intellectual chops? This from someone whose arguments thus far have consisted of appeals to unspecified authority, the presentation of personal theories as "historical fact" and personal attacks?

And by the way, man, Heidegger is hardly taken seriously, except for by people like Derrida who's philosophical contributions admit of nothing but a poor excuse for jargon-laden literacy criticism.

Literacy criticism?
 
RomanBirddog said:
Wow, I didn't realize that reading this thread was compulsory. If you feel that our posting in this thread is "making you suffer," it seems that you are the one with the problem.

Cutting and pasting from an external source? Um, fella, I hate to break it to you, but there are really people out there that talk about this sort of thing without having to look it up on the internet. Some people (myself included) study this for a living, and get paid for it. "Pseud"? Clever.
That's not news 'fella', however the people who do talk about this sort of thing without having to look it up on the internet don't do it on websites devoted to heavy metal.

Why not?

Because, smartypants, they do it at their local Phil and Lit society, where their 'opinions' are not seen as pathetic attempts to be the internet tough, yet highly intelligent, guy.

Of course you aren't making me suffer, I was using what grown-ups call irony, wit and hyperbole. You would have recognised this if either...
  • You took your head outta your arse, or
  • You were bright enough
By the way, pseud is a common term to describe people like you and the foolishly named troll. It's not clever, it's sad.