Palin: Iraq war a "task from God"

@derek: I know you bragged about being well off, and I think that's not why you're saying this btw, I think you're just playing the Devil's advocate here.... I understand you point, you can't say '0OH ONE LESS BMW GREEDY FUCKS'... they earned that money (in some cases, others it was just given to them) so whatever it is used for is irrelevant... my point is the same as DW though, they will live well off with or without the taxes, and while it's not fair to them 1000%, it will make society better and improve the lives of many. The little guy DOES need to catch a break. The fact the wealthy would want to deny such a positive change to prevent a substantially small amount from leaving their bank account is sort of revolting.

@Foul: Yes, I do think rich nations should give their money (in a responsibly PLANNED way, not just cash) and I've been saying it for years. The world will only change when people realize this way of life is bullshit, we need to make a lot of changes that will drastically change our lives and the lives of others in the process, but nothing big that will destroy us. It's like losing weight, a pain in the ass, you can't eat chocolate all the time and be lazy but if you pay attention you can still enjoy food and it makes you feel good and proud to do it and improves your health, or in this case the health of the rest of the world/
 
Actually, every citizen is required to pay taxes. So, everyone is required to give to the poor, even the poor. It's not charity.

The point is that the wealthy are required to pay more taxes to cover what the poor cannot, so that the poor can have services that the rich can already buy for themselves. The poor derive the benefits of the taxes they pay and the taxes paid by those more wealthy, whereas the wealthy derive little or no benefit.

i.e. Why do I, Joe Rich Guy, want to pay even more taxes than I already do so that we can have a national health care plan that I won't ever use, as I already have way better medical insurance.
 
The point is that the wealthy are required to pay more taxes to cover what the poor cannot, so that the poor can have services that the rich can already buy for themselves. The poor derive the benefits of the taxes they pay and the taxes paid by those more wealthy, whereas the wealthy derive little or no benefit.

And what would be so wrong, and horrible about this? There are plenty of wealthy people in this world who are not opposed to paying more taxes, and this is because they actually care about their society.
 
i.e. Why do I, Joe Rich Guy, want to pay even more taxes than I already do so that we can have a national health care plan that I won't ever use, as I already have way better medical insurance.

....


.....

Sharing the wealth and good fortune you have is a bad thing? You have awesome healthcare therefore you don't care about a family who doesn't... 404 logic not found.
 
This is troll territory at this point. You're not arguing because you don't understand, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

Edit: And making me take the side of HN! Stop it!
 
This is troll territory at this point. You're not arguing because you don't understand, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

Edit: And making me take the side of HN! Stop it!

As you wish. I remain unconvinced that any human being deserves anything, good or bad, and posit that if we could dispense with the concept of fairness, we could have a more constructive discussion.
 
Not going to happen. All you're going to be able do at this point is infuriate others with statements you know won't go over well because their nature is counter to the betterment of society.

I'm off to find some other thread to populate, this discussion isn't going anywhere from here anyway.
 
The problem, I think, is that we the people do not have any plan or goal or agreed upon consensus about what and where we want to be as a nation in 50, 100, 500 years. Once you know what your goals are it is much easier to objectively judge laws and systems based on whether they meet those goals. Your post assumes a certain set of goals, namely that the US should be the best in healthcare, education, and social services. If, however, I assume that America should be an Objectivist utopia, then the changes you propose would be contrary to that goal.

Edit: And for the record, an income of $350,000 would pay $101,251 in federal income tax in '08

Good point.

But in my opinion, they're gonna have to suck it up like we've been sucking it up for the past 200 years.
 
Chris, man, we need to work on your intelligent posts being much more bullet-pointy!

You're absolutely right, Derek, and I must apologize for all my pointy-ended posts. I won't apologize for my passion or thoughts behind them, but I get heated over these matters and it's in no way, shape, or form directed at anyone in particular.

I also must be honest with everyone to show where I'm coming from and how strongly I believe in this plan.

I come from an affluent family, at least on my mother's side. We're not talking oil company wealth, just affluent and successful. Fighter pilots turned airline pilots, deans of universities, scholars living abroad, etc. They didn't start affluent, just became affluent through hard work, dedication, smart investing, and above all, EDUCATION.

I had a good childhood and never wanted for anything. However, it was instilled in me from the very early age of about 5 to save money and that a want was not the same as a need. Frugality was the word of the day. Consequently, I had other plans and didn't follow in their footsteps, although they fought me tooth and nail on it. My grandfather and uncles both recommended I go into the AF out of high school, get my education, and either get out or become an officer as they had done. I had grown up with fighter pilots and that was my life since I can remember...they were like father figures for me, even though they weren't my actual father. My father was actually much more like who I am today...supportive of whatever I chose and wished me happiness over wealth. So after 18 years of chomping at the bit, I joined the AF and was having the time of my life until it all of a sudden did a U-turn and the military somehow turned into a political machine, not a war machine. Got out and have been living happily in Italy since.

When I decided to get out, my family completely lost their minds. They had visions of me living on the street in Europe, begging for food or something. I hadn't followed their plans to the letter and according to them there was no other way to find success. After they realized I could not only take care of myself but that I'm married and living a great life abroad, they've completely changed their tune. At one time I was the shame of them because I was being rash and deciding my future by which means I wished, not them. Now you can hear a little envy in their voices every time we speak, and it's not because I live in Italy (although that is one part of it). It's because I took the advice that was right FOR ME and shaped my own future, and I didn't need their mold to do it. They helped me get started by supporting my military career and when I became a man on my own I took the reigns. (don't worry, there's a point to all of this)

My Uncle Joe (what a common name) was in Venice the other day for a few days due to a long layover from his leg of flights from Delta, as he flies the European parts. This was the "golden child" of the family for the longest time; honest to a fault, never broke a rule, perfect in everything he did. During our visit, I quickly realized the difference between my living abroad and the rest of the family's living abroad over the years, whether it be in the military or professor at a university abroad. They had never really absorbed the culture that was all around them and were still outsiders, whereas I assimilated myself within this culture and became a part of it, and now I honestly believe that traveling isn't the best education, but becoming a part of another culture and immersing yourself in said culture. A good analogy would be typical tourists taking a group tour of Rome instead of meeting and befriending locals and experiencing the true culture of Rome. They were always outsiders, no matter how many stars their hotel had on it.

My other uncle Tom is also the squadron commander for one of the Reserve Refueling Wings at Tinker AFB and is also an airline pilot simultaneously. Do the math. He offered me the job I wanted to begin with when he found out I was leaving the AF, and I turned it down. I realized that my life would be a lot less glamorous, a little less stable and maybe a bit more difficult living on my own on the outside, but it was the right decision for me.

The point of all this is that I'm no stranger monetary success; I've been around it all my life and I can honestly say that if the affluent or super wealthy have to pay a little more than the everyday Tom, Dick or Harry for the survival of what was once the greatest nation on earth, then so be it. I'm not some outsider looking in and I've experienced it from both sides and I can honestly say that happiness and quality of life trumps wealth and success any day of the week. Yes, sometimes I miss living in the giant house overlooking the beautiful lake in the most affluent part of our small town where I'm from, but I wouldn't trade my position now for it in a million years. All the fast cars, toys, gadgets, and world traveling every year can't replace what I have. Now I can travel at my own leisure, albeit I'm staying in much less fancy hotels and sometimes not even a hotel. But it's not a vacation for me when I travel; it's a part of my life.

I've seen it from both sides and I believe the country will be much better off with one less Mercedes in the garage if in change we get stability and better quality of life for the ones who truly deserve it.
 
Here's part 3... the preface still surprises me an hour later.



BTW, another fuck up by Obama... he's back to denying he's ever heard controversial stuff from Wright prior to the videos coming out. I thought his stance was "Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes."

But I guess at least it's not forgetting how many houses you own. :lol:

Although, Barack is right on the "Fox news is hateful"... because they are, as a whole.

All in all though, Obama is doing great in terms of being an Interviewee. Haven't seen him this decent before.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
LOL @ the mention of Sean Hannity!

Even Obama calls out Hannity...oh man, it doesn't get any better than this. As shitty as Fox Spews is, Hannity makes the rest look like a bunch of nuns. He's the poster boy for neocon bullshit...it doesn't get any worse, and I find it hilarious that even Obama calls him out by name on his own network.
 
I'm now awaiting the McCain/Palin interview. If they don't do it, I will be very upset because although everyone knows Fox is a shitty news source, they still have a shred of credibility. If they don't put the Republicans under the spotlight, it's going to really highlight to the rest of the world just how weak and fragile the right actually is.
 
O'Reilly is trying to get Palin. Not sure about McCain. McCain was interviewed by Fox News 2 days after Palin was announced, but, it wasn't a Bill interview. Bill's had McCain on several times in the past, but obviously it would be nice to get one of these from McCain.

Hannity was such a whiny baby tonight... this, according to Hannity, is the 5th time Obama has "attack specifically" him. If there is anyone who my opinion will never get any better of, it's Hannity.
 
I remain unconvinced that any human being deserves anything, good or bad, and posit that if we could dispense with the concept of fairness, we could have a more constructive discussion.
totally agree! but its much easier for 'poor' people to say they've all been screwed and 'rich' people are all just lucky and everything was handed to them anyway.
all of lord foul's posts in this thread are fantastic and thought provoking, but no one has given a decent response besides, "oh they're rich, they can afford it!" so what becomes the incentive to work when the gov taxes more so they can give everything away to the 'poor' and 'hurting'? there is none! increasing social services only increases the amount of worthless humans sucking money out of YOUR and MY pockets (not just richie rich).



life story...and then:

The point of all this is that I'm no stranger monetary success; I've been around it all my life and I can honestly say that if the affluent or super wealthy have to pay a little more than the everyday Tom, Dick or Harry for the survival of what was once the greatest nation on earth, then so be it. I'm not some outsider looking in and I've experienced it from both sides and I can honestly say that happiness and quality of life trumps wealth and success any day of the week. Yes, sometimes I miss living in the giant house overlooking the beautiful lake in the most affluent part of our small town where I'm from, but I wouldn't trade my position now for it in a million years. All the fast cars, toys, gadgets, and world traveling every year can't replace what I have. Now I can travel at my own leisure, albeit I'm staying in much less fancy hotels and sometimes not even a hotel. But it's not a vacation for me when I travel; it's a part of my life.

I've seen it from both sides and I believe the country will be much better off with one less Mercedes in the garage if in change we get stability and better quality of life for the ones who truly deserve it.
if your story is true, you worked for everything you have, and even turned down a job that was available to you over others because of a family connection, yet you believe some people should be handed things for free? are you just superman and us mere mortals need the extra help because we cant make it on our own? the rest of your story (forging your own path, going without fancy gadgets, etc) seems to be in conflict with the last 2 paragraphs, especially the 2nd to last where you argue that money doesnt buy happiness, therefore rich people should hand it over so the poor can....buy happiness?....because they 'truly deserve it'......for some reason
 
if your story is true, you worked for everything you have, and even turned down a job that was available to you over others because of a family connection, yet you believe some people should be handed things for free? are you just superman and us mere mortals need the extra help because we cant make it on our own? the rest of your story (forging your own path, going without fancy gadgets, etc) seems to be in conflict with the last 2 paragraphs, especially the 2nd to last where you argue that money doesnt buy happiness, therefore rich people should hand it over so the poor can....buy happiness?....because they 'truly deserve it'......for some reason

Ok, since you're gonna be a prick, I'll play along.

First, I didn't turn down the job in the full-time reserves (sounds like an oxymoron, but there is part-time and full-time reserve duty) that I had originally wanted when I first joined years ago on active duty but didn't get because it was offered to me by a family member; I turned it down because where my I wanted my life to go wasn't in line anymore with where I was when I first joined. People pull strings all the time from family members for jobs, assignments, etc, although I've never been that lucky. I would've LOVED to go to McChord AFB in Tacoma instead of Elmendorf AFB in Alaska as my first duty station for three years, not to mention getting sent to South Korea for a year, although it ended up as a nice tour of duty. My point was that my life could've been much easier monetarily-speaking, but I realized that where I could go on my own would be much more rewarding for me personally, even if I made less than half what I would've made in the AF. It sounds like you're insinuating that I'm saying that I'm some unselfish saint or something, when that's not the case.

Happiness and quality of life are not congruent with money, and obviously that was the point of the whole post, which was completely lost on you and you still don't get it. I'm not saying I'm some fucking superman...I'm saying, as I stated in the previous post, that I've seen it from both sides of the fence, and happiness and quality of life is better than lots of money. You can be happy and have a great quality of life without having a lot of money, though maybe not in the US these days. That could change with this plan and the US would actually be a nice place to live even if you don't make over 50k a year.

Also, I never said anything about the rich giving the poor money so they can "buy happiness". I stated that the rich could afford a tax hike and still live well, and that by doing that would improve the quality of life of the little guy. I describe happiness as a steady job, good health, good education, and just an overall good state of being. Is it REALLY that much to ask for from "the greatest country on earth"?

I've seen it from both sides, being in an affluent family and then being broke and alone, so I feel I'm in a position to make this statement. It's 100% unfair to the successful and wealthy to tax them more than anyone else, but as in typical conservative American fashion, they'd rather prove a point to be fair all across the board and let the other 90% of Americans suffer for another 20 years instead of rectifying the problem immediately. They're so worried about being completely fair to the minority that the majority suffers. Gee, that sounds familiar. Where have I heard that before? Looks like the Republicans stole that trick from the Democrats, and it now looks like the Democrats have woken up.

You know what? Fuck it. Let's not do it and let Americans continue getting dumber, fatter, sicker, and let them die quicker.

Here's a wake-up call: the self-proclaimed greatest nation on earth should have a basic livelihood guarantee besides the Bill of Rights for every single person if it's so goddamned great. Every other nation in the industrialized world has the equivalent of our Bill of Rights now, so we can stop beating our chests about something not only everyone else has, but that they improved upon. You should have the right to have affordable health care, decent jobs, and affordable education. Health, work, and education...is it REALLY that much to ask for? Italy does it and it's one of the smallest western European countries, yet has over 60,000,000 inhabitants. The US is huge and has over 300,000,000. Raise some taxes and guarantee these basic HUMAN rights and then maybe we can work our way back up from a third-world civilization and join the rest of the civilized world.

The problem with the US is that it still looks upon the health and education of its citizens as a privilege and not a right.