Races

[Vimana]

Africa had an easily survivable environment where you didn't need as many people to sustain a group. In harsher environments where you do need more people you find larger groups. But if the environment is too harsh to support a large group of people then you get the natives of Australia and the Inuits.

See where I'm going with this? The Europeans and Asians are no more intelligent on average than anyone else. They just happened to move into good environments for supporting civilizations.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

See where I'm going with this? The Europeans and Asians are no more intelligent on average than anyone else. They just happened to move into good environments for supporting civilizations.

What, prey tell, would IQ measure then? Surely it could not be cognitive function i.e. intelligence...

 

[Haukrinn]

Considering that most history professors praise Jared Diamond, and none that I've ever had have even mentioned Rushton, I think I'll stick with Diamond. Are you one of Rushton's students or something? He sounds rather disgruntled.

No, I'm not one of his students.

What Jared Diamond fails to explain is how the races could have lived in such vastly different environments for thousands of years without the races adapting to their respective environments, via natural selection.

Also, race differences in intelligence are so well documented it seems pointless to look for purely environmental explanations for the different histories of the various racial groups.

The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study demonstrates that when blacks are brought up in white middle-class homes they still have an average IQ 15 points below the white average.

 

[Einherjar86]

What Jared Diamond fails to explain is how the races could have lived in such vastly different environments for thousands of years without the races adapting to their respective environments, via natural selection.

I don't see why this needs explanation. As far as I'm concerned, we've seen races adapt to their environments. Each culture utilizes aspects of its environment to its own advantage. What else is there to explain? Cultural adaptation is less evident, being only behavioral adaptation. The homo sapien is built to withstand and endure in many different environments. Therefore, physical adaptation is not required so much as cultural adaptation. And natural selection does occur; Diamond talks about races that go extinct due to cultural behavior in his second book, Collapse.

The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study demonstrates that when blacks are brought up in white middle-class homes they still have an average IQ 15 points below the white average.

We won't trust Jared Diamond, but we trust the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study? There are more competing factors. For instance: the influence of modern black culture on modern black youth; discrimination towards blacks in a predominantly white neighborhood; subconscious bias in the adoptive parents; etc.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

We won't trust Jared Diamond, but we trust the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study? There are more competing factors. For instance: the influence of modern black culture on modern black youth; discrimination towards blacks in a predominantly white neighborhood; subconscious bias in the adoptive parents; etc.

How would said factors influence a set of biological attributes? If Johnny can't add, odds are it is not on account of such factors.

In addition, these IQ numbers are in line with the rest of the domestic congoloid population.

 

[Einherjar86]

? Sure it is on account of those factors. IQ tests measure your intelligence level. Education and upbringing forms a huge part of your intelligence. All of the things I mentioned affect one's upbringing. If Johnny can't add, it's possible that he's being discriminated against, treated slightly unfairly, or is negatively affected by previous cultural institutions.

 

[Haukrinn]

...There are more competing factors. For instance: the influence of modern black culture on modern black youth; discrimination towards blacks in a predominantly white neighborhood; subconscious bias in the adoptive parents; etc.

Well, in the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study they found the bi-racial kids ended up with an average IQ directly in-between the white average and black average. Now, 12 of the 130 kids were bi-racial but their adoptive parents mistakenly believed them to have come from two black parents. The average IQ of these 12 kids was the same as the other mixed-race children not the black children. This strongly suggests that there wasn't a 'sub-conscious bias in the adoptive parents'.

As for black culture, discrimination, etc. how does this explain why blacks in Africa score significantly lower on intelligence tests than do blacks in the Western nations? It would appear that living in white-dominated societies makes blacks smarter if anything.

 

[Vimana]

You can't do studies with 130 kids. Plus who knows how they were picked.

And it seems no one has answered my question. What exactly is intelligence? At least tell me what it is first.

 

[Einherjar86]

Wrong thread, razor.

 

[razoredge]

Wrong thread, razor.

You wont believe this but it actually did that on its own. Then for awhile it showed I posted on this topic but it wasnt even here, I couldnt figure out what was going on. "where did my post go and why is it saying I posted on the race topic? "

 

[Norsemaiden]

Well, in the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study they found the bi-racial kids ended up with an average IQ directly in-between the white average and black average. Now, 12 of the 130 kids were bi-racial but their adoptive parents mistakenly believed them to have come from two black parents. The average IQ of these 12 kids was the same as the other mixed-race children not the black children. This strongly suggests that there wasn't a 'sub-conscious bias in the adoptive parents'.

As for black culture, discrimination, etc. how does this explain why blacks in Africa score significantly lower on intelligence tests than do blacks in the Western nations? It would appear that living in white-dominated societies makes blacks smarter if anything.

It would have a lot to do with the fact that African blacks, with their multiple ethnicities are all ethnically different to blacks selectively bred as slaves, in a physically eugenic process (who also often have some white ancestry). They don't even look the same - so you are not comparing like with like.

 

[monoxide_child]

Yes there is a reason why Europe has been the dominant force in the world for the past couple of thousand years, and race isnt the deciding factor. I suggest you do a little reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

read the part titled "weaknesses in arguments"
actually read the links you post

 

[monoxide_child]

^ well he's "a practicing wiccan" if that shows any indications of anything.... just sayin', not that I like to speculate on the brain waves of those involved with belonging to such things....... [chuckles and rolls the eyes]

why would a Wiccan have different brain waves than a Christian?
i'm not dependant on The Goddess for anything, (in the way that most Christians think that "God" and Satan totally control EVERYRTHING) i don't ask The Goddess for help, i don't do the telepathy really frequently, i really only practice The Craft when i'm with other people doing group spellcasting, "Healing" is a solitary skill but i don't do it very often because there's only a handfull of people that even know i can do it. if everyone knew i could do it, i'd be swamped with people constantly asking me to heal their stubbed toes and writer's cramp

 

[monoxide_child]

It would have a lot to do with the fact that African blacks, with their multiple ethnicities are all ethnically different to blacks selectively bred as slaves, in a physically eugenic process (who also often have some white ancestry). They don't even look the same - so you are not comparing like with like.

i see your point here
the initial African slaves were those Africans that were the best suited for being slaves
with the slaves breeding with each other to make more generations of slaves, and the white-male slave-masters occasionally breeding with the female slaves, and the huge explosion of black American males breeding with white females since the 1960's civil rights movement/sexual revolution, you have a situation where a random black guy born in America, (alive right now) is going to be signifigantly genetically different than a random black guy born in Africa (alive right now)

 

[monoxide_child]

What exactly is intelligence? At least tell me what it is first.

inteligence in this case is measured by the skills and knowledge that are instictive for the white people, so ofcourse the white people did better on the tests,
if the tests involve playing basketball and understanding ebonics, then the black kids would have done better on the testing

 

[razoredge]

why would a Wiccan have different brain waves than a Christian?
i'm not dependant on The Goddess for anything, (in the way that most Christians think that "God" and Satan totally control EVERYRTHING) i don't ask The Goddess for help, i don't do the telepathy really frequently, i really only practice The Craft when i'm with other people doing group spellcasting, "Healing" is a solitary skill but i don't do it very often because there's only a handfull of people that even know i can do it. if everyone knew i could do it, i'd be swamped with people constantly asking me to heal their stubbed toes and writer's cramp

not that I like to speculate on the brain waves of those involved with belonging to such things....... [chuckles and rolls the eyes]

 

[Haukrinn]

It would have a lot to do with the fact that African blacks, with their multiple ethnicities are all ethnically different to blacks selectively bred as slaves, in a physically eugenic process (who also often have some white ancestry). They don't even look the same - so you are not comparing like with like.

I think the difference between the two has more to do with the fact that modern Western blacks came predominately from the west of Africa, coupled with the fact that blacks in the West, as a group, are roughly 20% white.

My point was quite simple anyway: that it's often said that the low IQ of blacks is the result of white racism/discrimination -- this explanation fails, as it can't explain the even lower IQ of blacks in societies where there are no whites.

Why do you consider Western and African blacks to be ethnically different anyway? The British aren't exactly the same genetically as we were, say 5,000 years ago, but we're the same ethnic group aren't we?

 

[Einherjar86]

My point was quite simple anyway: that it's often said that the low IQ of blacks is the result of white racism/discrimination -- this explanation fails, as it can't explain the even lower IQ of blacks in societies where there are no whites.

IQ tests fail to measure the intelligence of blacks in a different culture. IQ tests are created by western standards of intelligence which do not necessarily translate across cultural bounds. Blacks in primitive African societies value completely different areas of cognitive thought than the western world.

Now, if you're referring to areas that are predominantly black in America, then the explanation still stands. Areas that are predominantly black are often poorer than areas that are predominantly white. This is a result of racism.

Now, as to your experiment, I find it rather lacking. You're essentially saying that if we placed a group of, say, 3,000 black students into an educational system with all the benefits and finances of a predominantly white, suburban, middle class school system, the grades/IQs of the black students would still be lower than whites. I feel that there are several variables inherent in this experiment that prevent it from providing accurate results. For instance, the resistance of some youths to such an experiment; the subconcious bias in teachers/parents towards the black youths (even if this bias includes over-nurturing them because of the fear of psychological damage if they "fail"); the pre-existing conditions of poorer blacks and their delayed reaction to such a wealthy, new system; etc...

All in all, you can't deny that a history of racism has something to do with the modern status of "black intelligence." Blacks have the same capacities to learn as whites do, but they are conditioned to such lower standards that it is not part of their understanding, or perhaps even concern.

 

[Vimana]

inteligence in this case is measured by the skills and knowledge that are instictive for the white people, so ofcourse the white people did better on the tests,
if the tests involve playing basketball and understanding ebonics, then the black kids would have done better on the testing

Not a good answer.

Intelligence is more environmental. There is no evidence that there is an intelligence gene. Black people and Hispanics (now) come from environments that are not mentally stimulating. All these misconceptions are just from the way people see blacks and Hispanics today. The Chinese thought the Europeans were stupid before. When a lot of Europeans were barbaric there were city building civilizations in Africa and South America with leaders and law.

And I agree with Ein's point. There were African kingdoms, and there were barbaric European places. The barbarians became civilized and that shows that all humans have the same capabilities on average.

 

[razoredge]

I understand and agree with Einherjar somewhat except the problem in America is not racism, its cultural, its the urban environment, its the black attitude. Those that want to break out of that can and do. I will never fall for the racism card. THey have the schools, the teachers and the books, they also have some very bad influences and role models, not the fault of whiteman.

They have proven to be very resorseful. Top notch musicians. Just how they ever produced jazz totally baffels me. Very clever athletes, comedians. Sports takes more than physical ability, its takes game and that is something there is no shortage of in the black community, perhaps at times to their detriment.

My observation is that "IQ" is not where in lies the problem, I find mis directed motivation or lack there of and their "laid back"(to be nice) attitude the biggest setbacks. I believe that laid back attitude is inherent and the older I get the smarter I think they are for having it.