Steve Wilson and Opeth

[Protected Witness]

I like dynamics.

Who's to blame? Wilson or the mastering guy? MAYBE IT'S YOU, MR. NIEL!

Heh, yep I admit it, I try to make the kinda mixes that look like El Steve-o's.

I agree about dynamics, however.

 

[Land Of Grey And Pink]

I knew this was going to be fun...

I wasnt referring to his PT albums actually, but the albums he produced for Opeth, which you have openly expressed distaste for.

Yes, to make a statement about his "pseudo psychadelic" music he makes...you need to know what youre talking about to have an opinion. end of story.

As for you disliking the 3 albums by him you do own, thats fine...but you finding a lack of depth in those, really doesnt hold much justice as an argument for someone who listens to quite a bit of black metal (much of it being generic and average if memory serves)...which maybe lacks depth more than just about any sub genre of metal 95% of the time.

And your assumption that he doesnt like metal based on his interview of the DVD is absolutely wrong. I can name 20 metal bands that steven wilson is a fan of, and he openly and gladly admits so. He was simply saying that most metal bands are boring and or generic and lack the quality and texture that Opeth does...which i wouldnt disagree with whatsoever. Most metal is for people who cant get enough of that sound.

 

[Korlich]

But, you must understand that Opeth will have 100% control on the songwriting, Steve Wilson won't be able to say, "I dont like that maybe we should do this"

Not to sound like an asshole, but have you even watched "Lamentations"?, on the dvd it becomes clear that Opeth needs SW approval of the material they had recorded in the other studio. Also you see an episode on the "Lamentation" where SW instructs Peter to play in a certain way. Finally you´ll have to be deaf not to notice the difference between Orchid-SL vs. BWP-D2.

Needles to say I prefere Orchid-SL, BUT I don´t think SW has screwed up the music that badly, I like BWP, even though it lacks the perfection of SL, Deliverance is OK, but too repetive and perhaps too wannabe MAYH2. Damnation came out fine, but Death wispered a lullaby and Weakness are amongst my least fav. opeth tracks.

Overall SW and the band has done OK since SL, but have not come near making an album that compars to Orchid or SL.

 

[Land Of Grey And Pink]

it's not like wilson did to opeth what bob rock did to metallica...not yet anyway

First of all, Steven doesnt want them to be more "accesible" if anything, he wanted Opeth to be heavier, and Opeth argued back that they wanted more of the textures and different elements in the music, as Steven and Mikael have both stated before....if anything, Mikael and the gang are to blame for so much Steven influence in the way its gone so far, for theyve had to aproved every bit of music thats gone into the albums that steven comes up with, as the guy above stated as well. So if you dont like Opeths newer material, i wouldnt say steven is the one to blame, its Opeth's maturity and desire to progress with their material thats caused your distaste for it. Many bands have fans who prefer older material...Opeth is rapidly becoming one of those bands as well...this is nothing new to music, it happens to most bands.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Agreed, LoGaP...I also think it's incorrect to say that Opeth "requires" any kind of approval from Steve Wilson to put things into their music. Rather, it seems to me that they've decided he is a good sounding board for ideas. They seem to consider his opinions heavily--but ultimately it's their call what they want to do. If people don't like that, they have a choice: deal with it or move on.

 

[Nico]

As for you disliking the 3 albums by him you do own, thats fine...but you finding a lack of depth in those, really doesnt hold much justice as an argument for someone who listens to quite a bit of black metal (much of it being generic and average if memory serves)...which maybe lacks depth more than just about any sub genre of metal 95% of the time.

I beg to differ. I enjoy music with depth, or particularly skilled musicianship. Shit like Gorgoroth, Setherial or 1349 doesnt do anything for me. For me, music should be powerfull and moving, like Azrael, Blut Aus Nord, Burzum, Abyssic Hate, Aeternus, Summoning, etc. You could hardly call these bands 'generic'.

And your assumption that he doesnt like metal based on his interview of the DVD is absolutely wrong. I can name 20 metal bands that steven wilson is a fan of, and he openly and gladly admits so. He was simply saying that most metal bands are boring and or generic and lack the quality and texture that Opeth does...which i wouldnt disagree with whatsoever. Most metal is for people who cant get enough of that sound.

You can't fucking say that "Opeth is more sophisticated than metal" because they're a fucking metal band. If you are into Opeth, but don't like metal, then you're fucked in the head, end of argument.

I also disagree that Opeth are most sophisticated than most metal. There are much more sophisticated bands out there, but they don't use prog rock as an element, and are therefore "generic" in your view.

 

[Rose Immortal]

You can't fucking say that "Opeth is more sophisticated than metal" because they're a fucking metal band. If you are into Opeth, but don't like metal, then you're fucked in the head, end of argument.

Not necessarily.

Let me give you my own example...I truly do like the general sound of metal--the thing is I don't like the way many specific bands choose to apply it. Opeth is one of the few bands that allows me to get a real enjoyment out of it, due to the approach they've used over time. That's how I can like Opeth yet dislike most of the metal I've heard at the same time.

The only flaw in the argument you were quoting was leaving out the word "most". When you put that back in, it honestly can make a lot of sense.

 

[ethereallights]

Personally, I think this has been a very ignorant and vile discussion, as well as some sort of sophisticated discussion..... so please if you can't post a reply without using the word "fuck" or the many other colourful words, just don't post.

Now that that is out of the way, onward toward the business at hand. I don't understand how some of you can say Porcupine Tree has no depth to their music? Some of their songs are catchy, but if you think every catchy song doesn't possess depth, then I guess that the only depth lies in semi-melodic music. Explain please........

 

[Ermz]

Agreed, LoGaP...I also think it's incorrect to say that Opeth "requires" any kind of approval from Steve Wilson to put things into their music. Rather, it seems to me that they've decided he is a good sounding board for ideas. They seem to consider his opinions heavily--but ultimately it's their call what they want to do. If people don't like that, they have a choice: deal with it or move on.

It's quite evident during the recording footage of 'In My Time of Need' that SW is controlling some creative aspect, whether willfully or not. See this is where that facet I mentioned earlier comes in - Opeth are coming to rely on SW. Peter is asking his producer how he should play a solo part in one of his own band's songs... that is quite unnatural to me. Excuse me if I'm wrong but the producer normally gets involved in the 'production' aspects of the band, and in SW's case, it seems as if that production work has poured very much all over the music itself (whether he intended it or not).

I want to hear Opeth again, and just Opeth, with no semi-transparent '6th member'. I'd like to hear the producer do his job, and Opeth do theirs.

 

[ethereallights]

It would be interesting to hear Opeth make another record without Steven Wilson, I don't doubt Steve Wilson's musical and overall talents as a producer, but I want to know what another Opeth album without him would sound like. There is a big difference in "Still Life" and "Blackwater Park", it's almost like two different bands. I wouldn't care if he was on the next album because no matter what it probably is going to be a great album either way.

 

[Nico]

Okay, I hate to quote from other threads/boards, but this seems very relevant. Another reason why I don't like SW or his production.

"Blackwater Park" has shit production. Sure, it's "professional" re general sound of every instrument but mixing and mastering really leaves something to be desired. It's way overcompressed and I think it even has digital clipping in a couple of places. The soft, acoustic parts are supposed to be soft, not at the same fucking volume as when they supposedly turn up to 11 and play death metal riffs. Opeth is one of those bands that really needs a dynamic production what with the constant switching back and forth between different quiet/loud parts, and BWP doesn't have it. "Morningrise" is far better re dynamics.

Taken from this thread.

 

[Hubster]

He's a git, right down to the bone. I don't get any enjoyment out of the albums he's been part of. He's a pretentious prick. That's pretty clear from the DVD. He may be a 'skilled' musican, but he plays psudo-psycadelic rock, and has absolutly no place producing albums of a metal band.

I think Shroud has a point here, even though he may have depicted it in a rather blunt fashion.

Watch and listen carefully to Wilson's comments on Lamentations, and even though he states that he's not trying to put down Metal as a genre, he still does. I think it's his goal to see Opeth being more progressive in ways akin to what his music is, but at the same time, helping Mikael to keep that dark extreme Metal edge.

Wilson has definately added some interesting things to Opeth's music, there's no doubt about that. Effects-wise he has done some nice work with the band, but I do think that perhaps his influence is getting a little too much. I would say that this should be limited by the band, but not to the point of him being uninvolved, as he IS a skilled musician.

I wouldn't really say that he has no place producing albums for a band like Opeth, after all, compare the sound of Deliverance to that of say, Orchid, and there's an obvious improvement to the sound.

There's another thing to consider though: Mikael has his own influences and passions in music, that is clear through what he has said in various interviews and also on Lamentations. It's quite possible that Wilson's aid brings the bands music closer to the kind of realisation that Mikael has, and that Wilson is just able to make that realisation possible in the way that Mikael wants.

I would prefer to see Opeth harken to the style of My Arms Your Hearse and Still Life, as these albums have a dark feel without sounding too produced (albeit, Still Life is EXTREMELY clean as well all know). These two records are very representative of how I think the band are, where as Blackwater Park and Deliverance were more experimental.

Wilson's inclusion into Opeth's projects brings a strong sense of experimentation, we all know this too. So I think it is safe to say that the forthcoming work may show us (close to) the end results of a transition from My Arms Your Hearse through to Deliverance.

I don't think we should expect something as light as Blackwater Park, but perhaps a cross between My Arms Your Hearse and Deliverance.

Just my two cents.

 

[jaykeegan]

I must say that I do respect Steven Wilson's talented musical capabilites, But I do believe that they serve absoloutely no purpose in Opeth's music.

 

[Land Of Grey And Pink]

I beg to differ. I enjoy music with depth, or particularly skilled musicianship. Shit like Gorgoroth, Setherial or 1349 doesnt do anything for me. For me, music should be powerfull and moving, like Azrael, Blut Aus Nord, Burzum, Abyssic Hate, Aeternus, Summoning, etc. You could hardly call these bands 'generic'.


You can't fucking say that "Opeth is more sophisticated than metal" because they're a fucking metal band. If you are into Opeth, but don't like metal, then you're fucked in the head, end of argument.

I also disagree that Opeth are most sophisticated than most metal. There are much more sophisticated bands out there, but they don't use prog rock as an element, and are therefore "generic" in your view.

Your making an assumption that i think there isnt anymore sophisticated bands than Opeth, of course there is...but i beleive youre confusing sophistication with technicality in many cases.

As for you saying people cant dislike most metal, and like Opeth is absolutely absurd, Opeth have much more to offer than the average metal band via: dynamics, melody, texture, beauty, originality and freshness. Surely you must be able to say that Opeth is more sophisticated than shadows fall, deicide, helloween, evoken and sodom...which hit just about every end of the metal board.

I myself love a lot of metal bands...most arent new ones, but you and i probably share many favorites anyway...you already listed burzum and summoning...i love both. But i would easily say Gorgoroth has more depth and ingenuity than most aeturnus or abyssic hate material...but thats not really the point.

The point is, be mad at Opeth for their change in direction, not at steven Wilson entirely...they would have done something pretty similar even if someone else had produced it.

 

[Land Of Grey And Pink]

I think Shroud has a point here, even though he may have depicted it in a rather blunt fashion.

Watch and listen carefully to Wilson's comments on Lamentations, and even though he states that he's not trying to put down Metal as a genre, he still does. I think it's his goal to see Opeth being more progressive in ways akin to what his music is, but at the same time, helping Mikael to keep that dark extreme Metal edge.

Too many hypocrites in here....everyone says hes a prick for bashing metal and or metalheads...yet every whack job on this forum who has a problem with Opeth's new material bashes steven wilson and his "pseudo psychadelic rock"....both are valid genres with their pros and cons, stop being one sided assholes.

 

[Ermz]

I wouldn't really say that he has no place producing albums for a band like Opeth, after all, compare the sound of Deliverance to that of say, Orchid, and there's an obvious improvement to the sound.

I would credit that improvement largely to the superior recording studios that Opeth have been using as they were on a much larger budget label at the time than they were at during the Orchid era. You can also give large props to Andy Seap for salvaging the sound.

Why not compare the sound of Deliverance to that of Still Life? Whilst Still Life has alot of obvious mastering and compression fuckups, it is still hardly inferior to Deliverance. I doubt it's SW's influence which is really controlling the quality of the sound. Merely better equipment/more experience over time.

 

[Nico]

in dynamics, morningrise beats blackwater park. but in overrall production, it aint even close...morningrise sounds almost like ulver compared to the crispness that is blackwater park

I disagree, but who cares. Actualy, I disagree with every post in this thread, including my own.

 

[ethereallights]

I do not believe that Steve Wilson is responsible for the "crisper" or "cleaner" sound Opeth acheives today, I believe they achieve this sound by a larger budget, better equipment, and nice studios.

Steve Wilson said that he loves metal in an interview once, and that it's a big influence on him.

As far sophistication goes, I believe Opeth is very much more sophisticated than a lot of the metal bands of the past and present.... and I didn't get the whole, Wilson hates metal out of the DVD. I must have missed something.

 

[Bored]

opeth is a sausage.. steven wilson is mustard..sausages rock without mustard.. but mustard adds that extra "TWANG" . this theory can be applied to this thread.. ALL IN FAVOUR SAY I

 

[ethereallights]

opeth is a sausage.. steven wilson is mustard..sausages rock without mustard.. but mustard adds that extra "TWANG" . this theory can be applied to this thread.. ALL IN FAVOUR SAY I

What sort of sausage?