the definitive discussioning of genre definitions discussion

[mutantllama]

Not all of them. For example, Mercyful Fate. I wasn't around back then, but weren't Venom considered just heavy metal? And their influence on thrash is probably nearly as strong as their influence on black metal.

I consider Venom to be the fathers on extreme metal. Of both Thrash, and Black .

 

[Zephyrus]

What do you guys think about the fact that in that past, during the first and second wave,just about any metal band who sang about Satan was considered Black Metal? Hell, I have seen Deicide called black metal by those in the 2nd wave Norwegian scene. I think this is how bands such as Mercyful Fate, who sound nothing like any other Black Metal band got included in the genre.

Apparently being called Black Metal by the 2nd-wave bands is not sufficient criteria to merit the term.

 

[skeptik]

I agree. Lyrical content is irrelevant in determining a genre.

Not for Black Metal.

Also, if you examine the lyrics of Mercyful Fate and Bathory and you compare that to the way the same subject is treated by death metal bands such as Deicide and Immolation, there is a clear difference.

 

[TESTAMENTLegions YouTube Group]

Personally, I don't care so much about this anymore. Labels, genres, tags, "proper" placement of a band.
I used to much more, I used to defend what I thought was a "truer" band over another band.Now I feel it is just a waste of time.I just kinda say I like what I like, and you like what you like.And if someone likes my music all the better.I'd rather just jam out then categorize or try to make my music "better" than someone elses.I just feel it isn't worth it, my time or theirs.

http://www.youtube.com/group/TestamentLegions

 

[wandering_taco]

I always wonder why Mayhem is never included in 1st wave. They were coming up with and releasing material basically right after Bathory's first couple albums.

 

[waif]

I always wonder why Mayhem is never included in 1st wave. They were coming up with and releasing material basically right after Bathory's first couple albums.

Probably because their most significant stuff was during the second wave?

 

[Allfader]

I always wonder why Mayhem is never included in 1st wave. They were coming up with and releasing material basically right after Bathory's first couple albums.

Hmmm... When ends the 1st wave and starts the 2nd?

1º ends with Bathory? - Asuming as 1st wave: Venom, Celtic Frost, Hellhammer, etx till Bathory.

2º Starts with Mayhem? well, they started the 'Norwegian' BM wave with Burzum, Darkthrone, Immortal, Emperor, etx.

I'm asuming as a black metal band the one who use:
a) satanic-rebellious-dark ritualist/nature lyrical themes
b) high pitched screams/grim vocals
c) very repetitive raw riffage (lo-fi sound on several cases) with a darker atmosphere (enhanced by the lo-fi sound and the constant use of the tremolo picking)
d) higher speed than thrash and death metal (applied on 80's mainly when death metal wasn't so fast as now)

My definition of BM seems to be applied more to the 2nd wave, (cause Venom, Celtic Frost, nor Mercyful Fate fit the description) and also, the most well known, accepted and distinctive form of BM is the sound developed by the 2nd wave.

 

[no country for old wainds]

a) satanic-rebellious-dark ritualist/nature lyrical themes

what unifies these themes?

b) high pitched screams/grim vocals

aeternus?

c) very repetitive raw riffage (lo-fi sound on several cases) with a darker atmosphere (enhanced by the lo-fi sound and the constant use of the tremolo picking)

lots of folky black metal says otherwise, as does stuff like summoning and drudkh

d) higher speed than thrash and death metal (applied on 80's mainly when death metal wasn't so fast as now)

i don't think this applies at all, there's loads of pretty slow bm.

saying the first wave ends with bathory is also pretty unhelpful unless you specify which album.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Good work on the definition, V5. That pretty much sums it up. Not sure if this matters to you or not, but there are a few unnecessary and/or hypish words you could take out of the piece. I have a possible rewrite below, which also has a few grammar edits.

Black metal is a subgenre of metal typified by its raw, often under-produced sound and Satanic or rebellious aesthetic, as well as simplistic guitar phrases and under-accentuated rhythms which allow for more emphasis on the atmospheric, detached and wandering riffs. Vocals are often higher pitched than in death metal (or, "screams" rather than death metal's "grunts") and can sound either detached or unnervingly direct.

The genre began in the early to mid 1980s as an offshoot of what is known as the New Wave of British Heavy Metal, with some bands of the movement (most notably Venom with their landmark album Black Metal in 1982, which most people consider the origin of the term itself) adopting occult imagery and a rawer, more minimalistic sound than was usual for bands of the time. Other factions of influential bands occurred sporadically in other European countries, including Switzerland, where Hellhammer created their own combination of black, doom, death and thrash metal. Over time, the influences culminated in Norway and other Scandinavian countries where bands such as Mayhem, Bathory and Burzum developed a "northern", cold and isolated sound. This sound would become a staple of the "second wave" of black metal, which extended until the mid 1990s.

Modern black metal has diverged significantly from its original path. Some see this as evolution and others as regression or even a falling-out from black metal totally. The genre is very much a worldwide phenomenon at present, with prominent acts located in Germany, France, Poland, Russia, and even the United States (much to the dismay of many fans of the "original" black metal, which was decidedly European). Sub-styles of black metal have recently expanded the aesthetic of the genre to include elements of industrial, psychedelic, ambient or folk music.

One other comment: I suggest finding more specific terms than "detached" and "direct" to describe the vocals, as those terms are pretty vague. I didn't change that in the rewrite because I don't really have a better suggestion at this time.

 

[waif]

saying the first wave ends with bathory is also pretty unhelpful unless you specify which album.

Unless he means Bathory, but that would be weird...

Good work on the definition, V5. That pretty much sums it up. Not sure if this matters to you or not, but there are a few unnecessary and/or hypish words you could take out of the piece. I have a possible rewrite below, which also has a few grammar edits.



One other comment: I suggest finding more specific terms than "detached" and "direct" to describe the vocals, as those terms are pretty vague. I didn't change that in the rewrite because I don't really have a better suggestion at this time.

Better.
I guess you could describe the "detached" sound as being mixed low with reverb and the more direct sound as just being mixed very high.

 

[Eeric]

New Wave of American Heavy Metal

Yeah, but like bands?

 

[arg]

i have some genre questions...
- how did grind come about?
- is it metal?
- how many subgenres of grind are there?
- how did brutal death metal come about?
- what are the differences between brutal death metal and grind?
- what do people find appealing about this shit?

 

[Evil?]

Yeah, but like bands?

Shit like,

Killswitch Engage
Lamb of Gaod
Shadows Fall
God Forbid

so on and so forth.

 

[no country for old wainds]

-from hardcore primarily but metal is an influence
-no although obviously they often overlap
-fucking billions lol
-suffo and co
-one is metal and the other is not
-some of it rules, not all of it sounds like someone swallowing a blender

nwoahm is a sweeping term for shit mainstream US metal like shadows fall and trivium

sorry im feeling pretty lazy

 

[divine_torture]

Nah, not lazy. How much is there to say? Nwoahm sucks. Grind isn't much better. Genres are getting out of hand. Pancakes are the only breakfast food I won't eat.

 

[no country for old wainds]

just as long as people don't dismiss shit like symphonies of sickness, horrified and world downfall

pancakes rule you nutcase

i intend to spend some time in the near future exploring grind and brutal death further 'cause i know there'll be a bunch of gems amongst all the crap, i only really have a cursory outline of the former in particular

 

[divine_torture]

Symphonies of Sickness is the shiznit. Horrified is one of those few albums I know I should have got long ago but haven't...

Pancakes do not rule at all.

Brutal death is pretty cool, getting more into it now. Some grind is ok, and good combos of grind/death are good. I shouldn't have been so blunt in saying grind is not good.

 

[slowlywerot]

Enjoy your blackhole.

 

[NoobSaibot]

what do you guys think about the metal genre chart that was used in the Headbangers Journey documentary? Too many mistakes or it good enough?
Link:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/impheris/Metal_Genealogy-1.jpg

 

[cookiecutter]

-from hardcore primarily but metal is an influence
-no although obviously they often overlap
-fucking billions lol
-suffo and co
-one is metal and the other is not
-some of it rules, not all of it sounds like someone swallowing a blender

nwoahm is a sweeping term for shit mainstream US metal like shadows fall and trivium

sorry im feeling pretty lazy

Good answers.

just as long as people don't dismiss shit like symphonies of sickness, horrified and world downfall

pancakes rule you nutcase

i intend to spend some time in the near future exploring grind and brutal death further 'cause i know there'll be a bunch of gems amongst all the crap, i only really have a cursory outline of the former in particular

Not sure if you'll like it but take a listen to Ancient Necropsy. It's a one man brutal death/grind band that has a lot of unique elements. V5 and I are big fans and if you aren't generally a fan of the genre you might like it for its uniqueness. Also if you want some other recommendations feel free to ask. I like helping people because it's the only type of metal I really know a lot about.