HarmonyDies....
Semi-True
..and BTW the president is not that bad. (although he has said some stupid stuff.). I'm pretty sure everyone would be hating Canada if it was big and powerful.
the dynamite politics thread
- Thread starter Malaclypse
- Start date
Ormir
Senior Member
At this point I would like to deny all responsibility. 
I don't hold a grudge against anyone. I'm pulling out of this one to avoid the very likely confrontations that I would have. I don't want to argue with anyone here. The people on DT forum are all smart people (even the ones who posted here), and I respect you. I want to keep it that way.
-ormir (format c: for coward)
I don't hold a grudge against anyone. I'm pulling out of this one to avoid the very likely confrontations that I would have. I don't want to argue with anyone here. The people on DT forum are all smart people (even the ones who posted here), and I respect you. I want to keep it that way. -ormir (format c: for coward)
Wolfman Von Jones
The trouble with you
@ Everyone who said that America did everything to win WW2,
I never said that. I said America did do a big part. Villain also has to realizes that part of the Russian victory had to do with the horrible winter the German soldiers werent prepared for (this also happened when Napolean tried to take over Russia).
I am also withdrawing from this thread, not b/c I am afraid to fight, but as Ormir said it is basically pointless to argue wit ha fanatic. Villain open your mind a bit more, Europe has started more wars than America, so please dont tell me you(as in Europe) are all for equality, that makes you a hypocrate. So I'm going on a short vacation tomorrow, and Im done.
But if you want to discuss more about Military History, say the affects of the Assyrian's destruction of the Seljuk-Turks, Im all for it.
Nick
I never said that. I said America did do a big part. Villain also has to realizes that part of the Russian victory had to do with the horrible winter the German soldiers werent prepared for (this also happened when Napolean tried to take over Russia).
I am also withdrawing from this thread, not b/c I am afraid to fight, but as Ormir said it is basically pointless to argue wit ha fanatic. Villain open your mind a bit more, Europe has started more wars than America, so please dont tell me you(as in Europe) are all for equality, that makes you a hypocrate. So I'm going on a short vacation tomorrow, and Im done.
But if you want to discuss more about Military History, say the affects of the Assyrian's destruction of the Seljuk-Turks, Im all for it.
Nick
Villain
Doctor BenQuillity
And what the hell does the Russian Winter has to do with Americans? Your original claim was that all the Europeans would be speaking german without the Americans. Your pity boasting with trivial WWII information does not change the fact that the Second World War was decided between Germany and the Soviet Union and Americans had extremely little to do with the end result. As can be seen from the numbers I presented above, the war would have ended in the same way had there never been any Americans in the world - it would just have taken a month or two longer for the Soviets to crush Germany.
So, can you now see the bias in your military history education? You have received it from the same source as all the other propaganda regarding the US actions in the world - the American media tries to claim every single bit of good work done on earth for themselves, while denying all the crimes the United States commit.
I did not claim Europe was all for equality. However, in the modern world, the majority of equality (heh!) is found in Europe. I need to open my mind more in this matter, I admit that, but I hope you could open your eyes and see what else your country is doing but good to you.
But if you want to discuss more about Military History, say the affects of the Assyrian's destruction of the Seljuk-Turks, Im all for it.
I'd love to do that (after all, there are no Americans included in that war, so your education just might be correct this time), but sadly, my time is very limited. But, please, bring this up after a week or two and I can perhaps "make it up" for my fanatism here.
-Villain
Wolfman Von Jones
The trouble with you
Ok I guess i lied when I said I wasnt posting anymore, but the Russian winter did take a large toll on the German army, alot of people died as a result, taking away the power of the army, hence, leading Russia to victory abit easier, and you cannt deny that Americans in Africa, Italy, and France, didnt take man power away from the Eastern front.
If you came to America and went up to a veterain of WW2 and told him what he did didnt matter, and him getting shot at, and having his friends blown to pieces and getting shot didnt mean a fucking thing, he would spit on you.
Nick
If you came to America and went up to a veterain of WW2 and told him what he did didnt matter, and him getting shot at, and having his friends blown to pieces and getting shot didnt mean a fucking thing, he would spit on you.
Nick
rahvin
keeper of the flame
let me cross-reference you and salmy together by stating hereby my fervent hope that you never ever meet a kurd terrorist who's also a moron who believes the earth is flat, given that this would make your theory crumble to dust.
on a (slightly more) serious note, i said what i thought was the lesser evil in my eyes when it came to a military confrontation between the us and iraq. if i have to take into account all systems of government in the world i might say that i opt for the enlightened igloo-based economy of the arctic circle and i'm ready to support 'em in any way i can. except that when somebody throws the a-bomb they'd all be busy hunting seals and won't even notice until it's too late. i consider the european union to be a bit like that, especially in the hunting seals part.
@ormir: i understand your point about mafia, but i have a feeling some documentaries have a tendency to focus on the "gangster outlaw" aspect of it, which might give the (rather unsubstantial) impression that when i go out i see mafia agents prowling the streets with machineguns.
now, i don't stand up for my country - because i don't like it that much either - and i surely condemn mafia, but you have to understand that this criminal structure runs the show in some places in the south of italy in a way much similar to that of a welfare state government. the wrong is in the fact that all transactions are submerged, thus making inequality rule, but the level of social control and civil behaviour of the vast majority of ppl is about the same that a strong statal presence could provide. this is to say that - in general - no violations of human rights are supported in this country, and those who take place are punished. most important: the law system is (still) enforced pretty well and does not allow many significant violent crimes to pass unnoticed. there is of course a lot of fiscal and white-collars criminality, perhaps one of the highest in europe, but i guess this doesn't really do for comparing italy to most other nations you mentioned.
however, no confrontation with you would come from me just because you said you hate the country where i live, i'm not a nationalist or anything.
rahvin.
@Ormir: yeah, Mafia is huge, although not so much in the North (I live in FIAT's hometown, so I see much more FIAT than Mafia). What most sources of information forget to say is that Mafia turned evil just recently, and shouldn't be opposed in such an in-your-face way on principle grounds. Factual grounds, such as "smuggling drugs is illegal" or "exploiting prostitution has to be prosecuted" yes; theory, such as "mafia is bad because of the mentality", is ok if you want to defend the State as an institution transcending cultures (which I want), but if you're just observing the facts it's a bit weird.
The non-Italians here might not know that the Mafia existed well before the Northern italians conquered the South and proclaimed the union of North and South in 1861. It was a hierarchical social network of the medieval type, and its main use was to regulate and control the access to resources such as water, very scarce in the area. When the invaders came and wanted to take away the land of the Mafia chiefs, of course they rebelled, and they continued to run their own business as a state within the state - the problem is that their main activities were now controlled by the government, and they didn't give in to cooperation, preferring to run occult manoeuvres to influence politics and/or to turn to straightforward delinquency. Historically, Mafia is very much explainable, and from a Southerner's point of view it might not be so absurd or so evil (even those who are not involved always stress that it's a mentality more than mere crime and that you can't just walk in and wipe it away). Of course here in the North we have a different society, and possibly I would not tolerate two days in a Mafia-ridden environment - possibly, they would not tolerate *me* and blow me up
hyena
The non-Italians here might not know that the Mafia existed well before the Northern italians conquered the South and proclaimed the union of North and South in 1861. It was a hierarchical social network of the medieval type, and its main use was to regulate and control the access to resources such as water, very scarce in the area. When the invaders came and wanted to take away the land of the Mafia chiefs, of course they rebelled, and they continued to run their own business as a state within the state - the problem is that their main activities were now controlled by the government, and they didn't give in to cooperation, preferring to run occult manoeuvres to influence politics and/or to turn to straightforward delinquency. Historically, Mafia is very much explainable, and from a Southerner's point of view it might not be so absurd or so evil (even those who are not involved always stress that it's a mentality more than mere crime and that you can't just walk in and wipe it away). Of course here in the North we have a different society, and possibly I would not tolerate two days in a Mafia-ridden environment - possibly, they would not tolerate *me* and blow me up
hyena
Villain
Doctor BenQuillity
I'd say history proves that a superior culture and
superpower number one shut each others out. In the ancient Greece, Athens had a far superior culture, but Sparta still defeated them with pure military prowess (my favorite example). Being a superpower does not reveal anything about a country's culture, but a superior culture wouldn't (in my opinion) try to crush the rest of the world under their heel (and here I'm contradicting myself with my dream of EU destroying the US).
But I must admit my vision of EU is far too optimistic. Yes, I still claim that during the last few decades the European nations have proved that they are both ethically and humanistically(?) far superior to any other country on earth. If we do not count the US-wannabe United Kingdom, the EU-nations have done the most to preserve life (both human lives and the nature itself) during the last few decades. That alone puts them far above the US in my mind - even if we are not accounting the countless crimes the Americans have done during the same period.
However, a lot of that seems to be disappearing - the greed, egoism and hypocrisy once so rare in continental Europe is spreading all over, IMHO. It is like we had taken a step back towards the 19th century - the top of the wave is passed and now were are going down. Still, we are far above the Americans, who have hit the bottom decades ago - and are not even trying to climb up again, IMHO.
-Villain
wildfyr
unus spiritus est
Originally posted by hyena
[BI would not tolerate two days in a Mafia-ridden environment - possibly, they would not tolerate *me* and blow me up
hyena [/B]
Chicago -- Bang Bang =)
Really, Villain, I find it difficult to follow your train of thought. I admit that I could be biased here because I am a Christian and therefore I read as signs of hope and altruism of any one society something that other people might just regard as junk superstition, but I wish that European governments and people had the same positive approach that Americans have, say, to so-called "faith based social initiatives" (ie switch of tasks such as drug rehab from the State to charities of a number of religions). I wish there were the same amount of interest in spirituality (although I love the fact that gross misunderstandings on the topic such as Scientology were not born here), and the same cultural legitimacy of stands that tend to be ridiculed here, say being pro-life. In most European countries now it's trendy to be sterile and self-centered, with far more sophistication than anywhere else - which is good -, but this makes us a dead scene.
The good point is, of course, that I am now going to buy a pack of cigarettes for 3.10 and NOT $7.50 as I would in NYC.
hyena
The good point is, of course, that I am now going to buy a pack of cigarettes for 3.10 and NOT $7.50 as I would in NYC.
hyena
Villain
Doctor BenQuillity
I don't doubt that for a second - still, it does not make his belief any more true than that of, say, an Islamistic terrorist who thinks he is doing the right thing when he kills little children. The fact is, what this veteran of yours did, didn't really matter the least bit. I can understand the people who lie to him, because his world would probably otherwise collapse. But why do these people lie to you? And especially, why do you believe them? Would your world collapse, if you realized your country isn't the brightest and best thing in the universe, but the source of evil it is? I say this again - majority of the education you have received concerning the American achievements is just as false as that belief of your veteran that he saved the Europe.
And yes, the Russian winter had an effect - far bigger effect than all the American actions combined, I'd say - but it doesn't change the fact that the war was decided between Germany and the Soviet Union. The manpower the western allies did draw away from the east was very minimal, as you can see from the numbers I posted before - the Soviets would have reached Berlin in 1946 had there never been any action on the western front after 1940.
-Villain
Villain
Doctor BenQuillity
I admit that I'm a fanatic in this matter. But so were called many of those that were against the Nazis in 1930's or Soviets in 1970's in Finland. I hope you realize how you sound just like the people that were "rähmällään" (sorry for non-finnish speakers) for the Soviet Union in the 70's and 80's - you deny all their crimes (I'll get to those once I have more time, I promise) based on your belief that they are doing the right thing, no matter how close you look at them.
-Villain
Small wars? Ok, I agree, small wars do not overturn economic cycles. But a war against Iraq is NOT a small war. They are one of the most military powerful country.
And a war doesn't only gives a kick in the ass to the economy. When a country is engaged in war, the whole population is, and everyone works harder, is more confident, so the whole thing works very well. Enough to regulate the recurrent demand-driven problem.
Samarkol
Canada. We're not hypocritical because we can't afford it, we're one of the most educated country in the world and we are not arrogant.
Samarkol
rahvin
keeper of the flame
i object to that. it might be true as long as the war takes place elsewhere, but confidence wasn't abundant in war-plagued countries during ww2, and that's why so much war propaganda was necessary to keep the spirits up, i'd say.
rahvin.
MadeInNewJersey
nursing my wounds
Your answer here helps answer itself. OF COURSE a nation that cannot "afford" to be hypocritical is not going to be arrogant. I *like* Canada quite a bit, don't get me wrong, but Canada is not self-sustaining (nor is any country in the world anymore, though the USA is *close*). It cannot exist without other countries, thus there is no arrogance. And how is Canada one of the most educated countries in the world?
I would have thought you'd say Japan, or Thailand, or Sweden or something.
Well if we can afford it or not doesn't change anything... we are still not hypocritical, whether we'd like to or not!
And Canada is one of the most educated countries. Japan is I think the best (from what I remember reading in a scientific article), then Taiwan is the second for math at least, and I think Canada is third. I don't remember exactly our ranking, but we were in the top 5, and that impressed me a lot. And by the way, Thailand is REALLY not a vastly educated place...
Samarkol
xenophobe
Active Member
Salamurhaaja, you're not even worth debating, and I see no reason to participate in one with you... first you say:
"You are a disease, I hope someone finds the cure fast."
Your next post, you are accused of bashing America and reply:
"I am not calling America anything, I said you have some pretty fucking stupid people making decicions over there."
Fucking liar. Get your story straight. Your an anti-American bigot. Just acknowledge that many of you hate America and we'll be fine... cause your opinions have nothing to do with the truth, just how you choose to interpret it.
"You are a disease, I hope someone finds the cure fast."
Your next post, you are accused of bashing America and reply:
"I am not calling America anything, I said you have some pretty fucking stupid people making decicions over there."
Fucking liar. Get your story straight. Your an anti-American bigot. Just acknowledge that many of you hate America and we'll be fine... cause your opinions have nothing to do with the truth, just how you choose to interpret it.
rahvin
keeper of the flame
now the point seems to be wether believing that most of scandinavia is against america because they're all enlightened countries who just saw the truth or because people's opinion is dictated by cultural stereotypes (be they true or false, i wasn't getting into this again) there like everywhere else too. 
rahvin.
rahvin.
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