the election, and stuff..

[KoichCPA]

But as soon as you go left even a touch, it's starts getting a bit too 'politically correct'.

As soon as you go right even a touch, it starts getting a bit too "racist"

 

[KoichCPA]

I cant believe you just called the bombing of Japan a war crime. It was abhorrent but there was no other choice, the Germans were rapidly catching up with their nuclear technology and would have used it on the US/England and the other allies the second they finished them. So if they hadnt bombed Japan, millions more people would have died.

Actually no, The germans were basically out of the war at the time the US bombed Japan.

 

[MetalWarriorSteve]

Spiff says: You're a tool, Steve. If I actually bought any of your releases I'd boycott Metal Warriors, and if I actually bothered going to see any of the bands you brought out I'd stay at home and watch TV instead.

No, wait, I bought Dungeon's A Rise to Power and their DVD. Or, should I say, the Steve Ravic DVD featuring Dungeon, because your mug is on it so often I got confused and almost took it back to the shop because I thought I'd picked up the wrong thing.

Hey Spiff, what you think of me does not bother me. I do what I do and will continue to do so. So that's the way you handle yourself when you disagree with someone, is it? Tell it to me when you see me. I'd like to to look me in the eye when you do so. The Metal Warriors video show has not changed it's format since 1997 so the Dungeon DVD is no different. Peter, Magz and myself have hosted them and now Simon and in future, there will be girlies too.

Spiff, the tool is YOU!

 

[spawn]

Actually no, The germans were basically out of the war at the time the US bombed Japan.

They were still working with the Japanese to devlop a nuclear bomb.

 

[MetalWarriorSteve]

Did I read somewhere that someone said that most Vietnamese immigrants are now on welfare? Not only is that utterly wrong, even if it wasn't what the fuck has that got to do with anything?

The issue about immigration came up. Read what was said properly and look back at the facts. Hawke/Keating allowed the higher percentage of immigrants to be from Asia and the highest percentage of crime comes from the Vietnamese community. Facts are facts. The ALP let through a lot of unskilled and high risk people. We need to moniter who gets in and it needs to be spread evenly. The Libs have been doing that.

My wife is from Europe. English courses now are balanced when it comes to where people are from. When she first arrived (the end of the ALP era), she would be in a class with maybe only 2 or 3 people that were not from Vietnam.

Brian, unless I know my facts about certain issues, I won't bring them up and if I'm questioned on an issue, I will have an answer.

There you go people, a lefty saying 'facts' not only my opinion should be filtered out.

Koich atleast is open to opinion in debate. I respect that and as he found out, he is not actually a lefty.

Now these communist admirer's have me concerned. These people should have spent some time in the USSR, Yugoslavia, Romania or Cuba to get a feel of what communism is.

Further more: Yes, any use of Nuclear Warfare is a criminal act. Nothing can justify it and yes, Koich has it right when he says the Germans were already out of the picture by then.

 

[Goreripper]

I think what Spiff was trying to say ( not in the most intelliegent way) that he was buying the DVD as a Dungeon DVD not a Metal Warriors DVD.

 

[phlogiston]

I didn't say Communism worked. Infact, if you go back and read what I said properly you'll see I said it doesn't work. But I do like the idea of what it tries to achieve.

 

[Goreripper]

the highest percentage of crime comes from the Vietnamese community.

This is complete bullshit. This is an utter lie. The Vietnamese community is no more crime-riddled than any other community, including the Croatians. All communities harbour criminal elements. The fact that the Vietnamese are identifiably more noticeable among our community than other cultures doesn't mean they are more criminally-inclined.

Facts are facts. The ALP let through a lot of unskilled and high risk people. We need to moniter who gets in and it needs to be spread evenly. The Libs have been doing that.

My wife is from Europe. English courses now are balanced when it comes to where people are from. When she first arrived (the end of the ALP era), she would be in a class with maybe only 2 or 3 people that were not from Vietnam.

Brian, unless I know my facts about certain issues, I won't bring them up and if I'm questioned on an issue, I will have an answer.

There you go people, a lefty saying 'facts' not only my opinion should be filtered out.

Do you know what the White Australia Policy was? Go the the Immigration Museum in Collins Street and look it up. Before Whitlam abolished it, non-English speaking migrants had to virtually sell their souls to get here. If anything, Labor policies have made it easier for migrants of all backgrounds to enter Australia, including your wife. As an immigrant yourself, you seem to have a pretty low view of immigration. I'm really surprised by that.

Now these communist admirer's have me concerned. These people should have spent some time in the USSR, Yugoslavia, Romania or Cuba to get a feel of what communism is.

The "communism" of the Eastern Bloc in the 20th Century wasn't really communism. It was socialist dictatorship purporting to be seeking a communist ideal.

Further more: Yes, any use of Nuclear Warfare is a criminal act. Nothing can justify it and yes, Koich has it right when he says the Germans were already out of the picture by then.

I agree with you here. In fact, Dwight D Eisenhower wrote that the Second World War would have been over within weeks whether the nuclear bomb was used or not, and believed it was unnecessary to have used it. There's evidence to suggest that the US administration wanted to use the atom bomb long before that did, but Roosevelt wouldn't allow it.

 

[MetalWarriorSteve]

He only did that to win the public vote after the public outcry about Howard and how he dealt with the US.

EXACTLY! When it was 40% for and 60% against going to war. Then when the majority of the public became pro-war 55%-45% he shut his mouth. This happened in the space of a week.

I lost all respect for Latham when he accused our position as a war crime. By saying that, he accused all of our troops of being war criminals aswell. I could spit him in the face for that. That is so fucking stupid (and I don't swear very often)... It is one thing to be against going to war... that is fine and I respect that persons opinion, but Latham went as far as calling his own nation 'war criminals'. Not even the Yank or Brit opposition did that. That is so wrong.

I was pro... why? Not because of the WMD. There did not have to be weapons of mass destruction to base my opinion on. The fact is that 75% of people in Iraq wanted to be free from Saddam. The Kurds are a perfect example. Saddam killed more Kurds then a war could over decades.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the Americans. They are not doing it to free the Kurds. I see it from a different angle. It worked out well for the people that really needed it, like the Kurds. Furthermore, I believe they deserve their own State but they won't get that from the Yanks because the Turks will oppose it coz half of Kurdistan is under Turkish rule so don't think I am pro-yank here. I am PRO FREEDOM for the people that really need it.

Howard did well, he made a commitment to support our friends but he did not over do it. No Australians got killed in the process so he did just enough to get a thanks from Australia's older Brother.

Latham may say we went to war for no reason, I say we went to war to Liberate people in need of freedom and we would also appreciate it if Australia was overrun by a dictator.

Fortunately, Croatia liberated itself but a lot of bloodshed could have been avoided if the Yanks and the UN jumped in earlier and not waited until things got too ugly in Bosna.

 

[MetalWarriorSteve]

PS. The Americans AND their allies had a duty in Iraq because they were the idiots that put Saddam in power and left him with power for so long.

Same with the situation in Croatia. The Brits and the Yanks forced Croatia to be under the rule of the Communist Yugoslavia from Belgrade... that's why I know why Freedom and Democracy is so important.

So people can say it's NOT 'our' war but it was The Yanks, Brits and the Allies that made the mess to start with so their duty to clean it up.

 

[KoichCPA]

Furthermore, I believe they deserve their own State but they won't get that from the Yanks because the Turks will oppose it coz half of Kurdistan is under Turkish rule so don't think I am pro-yank here. I am PRO FREEDOM for the people that really need it.

Yes, what we need is another israel in the middle east. Good Idea steve.

 

[MetalWarriorSteve]

This is complete bullshit. This is an utter lie. The Vietnamese community is no more crime-riddled than any other community, including the Croatians. All communities harbour criminal elements. The fact that the Vietnamese are identifiably more noticeable among our community than other cultures doesn't mean they are more criminally-inclined.

(Steve says) I read a police report that suggested otherwise. I actually found it by stumbling across an article about Croatians living in Footscray, Sunshine and St. Albans. It was explaining how the majority of people in these Suburbs were from a Croatian background and how they have moved outward and the Vietnamese now hold the majority and it went on to mention how the criminal element of the community was way too strong.

Sure, there are crims everywhere... that's my whole point about policing who comes in. The fact was that the ALP let in too many high risk people.


(Goreripper) Do you know what the White Australia Policy was? Go the the Immigration Museum in Collins Street and look it up. Before Whitlam abolished it, non-English speaking migrants had to virtually sell their souls to get here. If anything, Labor policies have made it easier for migrants of all backgrounds to enter Australia, including your wife. As an immigrant yourself, you seem to have a pretty low view of immigration. I'm really surprised by that.

(Steve says) ummm... my wife never got residence until Howard got in. Labor policies were a pain in the arse too. Further more, Whitlam can go and get fucked. Whitlam brought in the policy that led to teachers at school calling me a terrorist.

MENZIE's allowed Croatian's to declare themselves as Croatian's and recognised the Croatian language which has existed for over a thousand years.

Whitlam called us terrorists! Whitlam tried to force our identity as being Yugoslav and our language as being Yugoslav. Hello, there is no such language and Yugoslavia at the time only eexisted for 50 years.

Whitlam permitted the Communist Yugolsav secret police to operate in Australia to help eliminate Australia from these terrorists Menzies recognised. They said these so call terrorists (Croatians) did crimes like the Hilton bombing etc. and were locked up.

Well, several years later it was found that these bombings were set up by the Yugoslav secret police to give Croatians a bad name and to get the Croatian nationality and language abolished. No recognition would eventually lead to no existence of one of the worlds oldest nationalities.

The Croatian's were freed and it was discovered that the Yugoslave secret police set up the crimes. Eventually, the Yugoslave embassy was shut down in Canberra. So you see, Whitlam was a purveyor of ethnic cleansing in Australia by trying to abolish our identity so NOBODY needs to tell me about how great Whitlam and the ALP were for Immigration.

I went to school being called a terrorist... nobody apologised when it was found that the ALP government collaborated with the real terrorists. So, fuck Whitlam!

Cheers
Steve

 

[MetalWarriorSteve]

Yes, what we need is another israel in the middle east. Good Idea steve.

Ummm... Israel? Israel control Palestine... don't understand...

Kurdistan should be Kurdistan. It should never have been put under the control of Iraq and Saddam. Iraq was more like Israel (occupying other nations) if you want to put it that way.

It's not about what we need, it's about what the Kurds deserve.

Thats where I hate the Brits, French and Yanks. They would rather force a nation under foreign dictatorship... then eventually this boils the pot and leads to these people finally seeking freedom like Croatia, like Lituania, Latvia, Estonia, Slovenia etc. Some avoid wars, others don't because the dictators try not to allow it like in Croatia's case.

If the French, Brits and Yanks never gave strenght to the dictatorships and recognised the Nations instead of forcing them under foreign rule, we would not have these situations to start with.

So you see Brian, I am not a fan of the Yanks and I hate the way they see the World in many cases. America stands for something that is great and I believe in but they also stand for shit. They stood for Saddam and Bin Laden so it's their duty to HELP the people they were partly guilty of imprisioning fix the problem and get them their freedom back.

 

[phlogiston]

Hey Steve, have you got any links or anything about the Whitlam/Menzies/Yugoslav/Croatia/Communism/Terrorism thing? It's a part of history that I'm not familiar with and my quick google for it didn't turn up much that talks about it.

 

[KoichCPA]

My point was this, people get pissed when you take their land give it to another race. It only leads to bloodshed, as in israel palestine. You take Kurdistan away from the turks, and the middle east will be a bigger mess than it is now.

 

[Kem]

I cant believe you just called the bombing of Japan a war crime. It was abhorrent but there was no other choice, the Germans were rapidly catching up with their nuclear technology and would have used it on the US/England and the other allies the second they finished them. So if they hadnt bombed Japan, millions more people would have died.

I can't believe you could deny this was a war crime. The US bombed the living shit out of Japan in the lead-up to dropping the bomb, and together with casualties from the bomb itself they killed an incredible number of civilians, over 300,000 i think, not counting those who died later as a result of leukaemia and cancer. At the time this number was equivalent to about a third of all the people living in those cities being wiped out. Could you imagine if someone did that today where you live? The US was out there bombing downtown Hiroshima and Nagasaki, when they should have been bombing military targets. That is fucked. The only reason they weren't tried as war criminals is because they won the war.

 

[KoichCPA]

Argueing with spawny is liking to argue with an incredibly fat man stuck in a doorway, he won't budge.

 

[MetalWarriorSteve]

Actually, hitler was the greatest single politician ever. He rescued his country from the one of the worst depressions in european history and made it the biggest industrial powerhouse in Europe. Read Mein Kampf, read hitlers speeches. Never, Ever, was hitler a socialist. As I stated earlier, he only named the party this to gain the leftist vote in the early stages.

Steve says: Look, I agree that the name does not fit the party. It was a National party with 'some' social values. It took care of the German people as a collective. It's the 'ist' that misrepresents what the party was really about.

I was not implying liberating the parts of Kurdistan under Turkish rule. Certain parts that were Croatia are now under Serbia or Italy etc. Greece rule the most beautiful parts of Macedonia. If they were returned with diplomatically, that would be nice but atleast these Nations now have a country to call home. The Kurds don't.

I would support the part of Kurdistan that was under Iraqi dictatorship to be recognised as an Independent State. Why should they be without a country to call home? They deserve a country just as much as anyone if not more...

As far as the Croatian Australian history. You may find some things if you search for the Croatian Six. You may remember graffitti all over Australia cities saying 'Free the framed Croatian Six'. You may also find some details by searching for info about the closing of the Yugoslav Embassy. The Yugoslav Police did killings in Australia. There was even a public shooting in Sydney witnessed by the media and police when a boy was shot trying to pull down a Yugoslav flag. That FINALLY got some media attention.

After it was revealed that the Croatians were not guilty of the bombings, the ONLY thing I saw was a tiny paragraph in a newspaper and ABC doing a small few second apology as they were the ones pushing for the prosecution together with the Labor Government.

Menzies recognised the Croatian Community and language. He recognised Community Halls & groups, churches, sports clubs and Croatian language schools. Whilst doing this, the Labor party was accusing him of supporting Terrorists.

When Labor gained power, it tried to force the Croatian Community to become 'Yugoslav' by only allowing Croatians to say they are of Yugoslav origin on their documents and tried to enforce a Yugoslav lingo. It did not work coz there is no such thing so they started the whole 'Serbo-Croatian'
thing aswell. Anything to abolish the identity of Croatian's.

You did not hear much about this at the time because Croatian lobby groups were not recognised by the government so the spokepeople supposedly representing the Croatia Community were those recognised by the Government. It was not until the Croatian boy was shot until the media really started to dig deeper which eventually lead to the shutting of the Embassy.

We had to fight to be recognised. How do you think a five year old child feels being called a terrorist by his teacher? I was called that because of the Labor Govt. policy. My prep teacher tried to FORCE me to draw a Yugoslav flag in class and call myself Yugoslav. I ran away from school that day.

Brian, are they your so called soft policies on immigrants? I grew up being called a terrorist and when the truth was being revealed and the Yugo Embassy was closed, nobody apologised.

That is why Croatian 'Nationalist' values are so strong and may have seemed over the top. We had to be vocal and colourful as it was only in Sports that we could really show who we were. It was our connection to wider Australia. Thats why our Soccer teams were the best in the country. That's why half the OZ National soccer team is Croatian. We had a passion because we had to prove ourselves.

I thank the ALP for one thing. It helped build me up to be the strong person I am today and have a strong belief when it comes to knowing the difference between right and wrong. It's given me the never say die attitude!
It's also given me a reason to question what their ideal is about. They are all promises but full of lies. I gave you some figures in an earlier post. They are facts. Interestingly enough, facts that suggest the Libs have contributed more to Social Welfare then what Labor did.

I'm not a person that thinks about money! Why would I be in the Metal scene? I have the credentials to be making several thousand a week at least. Yet, I put MYSELF in a position where I don't know how to pay the phone bill or electricity or buy the groceries this week. Thankfully, Howards given me bonus payments for my family.

I am a person that thinks for the future. An economically strong country so that my children have a bright future. So that all of our children have a bright future. So that Australia has a bright future!

The Australian Family is Australia's future and there is no one party or person in this country that can do a better job then the Libs as harsh as they may seem, the Social benefits they have provided my family are 10 times more then what the ALP offered so I don't need to hear about what Labor represents in 'theory'. Like Communism, it may seem to be good in 'theory' but it's unrealistic.

Cheers
Steve
The Anti-Socialist/Anti-Communist

 

[spawn]

So every single thing that happens in war where someone dies is a war crime? The UN war crimes tribunal is going to be busy as fuck if thats the case.

I cant believe how you people look through rose coloured glasses at everything, it was a WORLD WAR, its all well and good now to say "oh maybe they could have bombed military targets". What the hell do you think the Allies were doing for the whole time the war was going on? Bombing farm animals and ducks?

The Germans were bombing downtown London, the Japanese were doing the same through the Pacific, and if the bombs hadnt been dropped on Japan, then they would have kept going on and on, costing millions more lives. If the Japanese or Germans had finished their atomic bombs first do you really think they would have just stuck it in a museum and invited England to come have a look, as long as they stayed behind the yellow line?

 

[MetalWarriorSteve]

So every single thing that happens in war where someone dies is a war crime? The UN war crimes tribunal is going to be busy as fuck if thats the case.

I cant believe how you people look through rose coloured glasses at everything, it was a WORLD WAR, its all well and good now to say "oh maybe they could have bombed military targets". What the hell do you think the Allies were doing for the whole time the war was going on? Bombing farm animals and ducks?

Steve says: Kem is right! How can you say nuking someone is not a war crime Spawn? That's the worse atrocity EVER commited!!!

The Germans were bombing downtown London, the Japanese were doing the same through the Pacific, and if the bombs hadnt been dropped on Japan, then they would have kept going on and on, costing millions more lives. If the Japanese or Germans had finished their atomic bombs first do you really think they would have just stuck it in a museum and invited England to come have a look, as long as they stayed behind the yellow line?

Steve says: By then, the Germans were done and the Japs were on their last legs. There was no need to nuke them. Stalin was invading Europe and Europe was defending itself from Communism and Soviet rule! The Brits did not offer to protect Europe from Stalin, they became allies against Hitler because they had a common enemy in Hitler. They did not care about Hitlers massacres. If they were opposed to mass killings, why did they side with Stalin, the BIGGEST mass murderer in that era? Because they had a common enemy.

Unfortunately, Europe had no choice but to side with Hitler and that is why Scandanavia (Sweden, Finland and Norway), Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania from The Baltic, Hungary, Austria, Croatia and many more all sided with the Germans. To protect their nations from Stalin and Communist rule. They lost the War and got accused of of atrocities.

Look at the facts. Stalin killed more people then anyone else. The Americans nuked Japan and the Brits offered people to the slaughter. They had no blood on the hands but they handed over a quarter of a million Croatians to be slaughtered by the Yugoslav Army. Mostly women and children were killed.

I'm saying, the losers are accused of being war criminals and the winners are 'heroes'? That's what I question. You can't prosecute someone for commiting a crime when you have committed a greater one yourself.

Realise that I am not anti-war so forget about accusing me with the 'flower' talk. Sometimes war is needed.

PS. Brian, we need the US (as you see, I'm not a big fan of theirs a lot of times). Sometimes you have to lose a little to get a lot. Isolating Australia is not good and the partnership we have now will benefit Australia. So some industries will have to be a little more competitive, but the bigger picture is a great one for Australia.

How will the economy compete with a United Europe. Australia needs strong ties with countries like The USA and Japan and not third world Asia like Hawke and Keating had going. We need to be level with Europe and partnerships are important. Look at our economy now. It's in surplus and that's where we need it. Good work by the Government. Australia has the best credit rating in the World. It can't get any better.