CiG
Dimension Hatröss
I don't disagree with any of that.
Did I say the film is from Alexandra's perspective? If I did I'd retract that.
Did I say the film is from Alexandra's perspective? If I did I'd retract that.
The GMD Movie Club Thread
- Thread starter no country for old wainds
- Start date
Einherjar86
Active Member
CiG
Dimension Hatröss
Oh I think I was just countering rms' point about Alexandra's perspective, by arguing that even from her perspective my comments about what the film is about hold up.
Also this reminded me, another nice and very subtle touch was when she gets upset about him calling her Alex, how she always tells him she hates that name, and prefers Alexandra.
Something as benign as forcing a hypocorism onto someone is probably very maddening and a clue into how his lack of respect for her as an adult intersects with his husbandly ignorance of her feelings in general.
Also this reminded me, another nice and very subtle touch was when she gets upset about him calling her Alex, how she always tells him she hates that name, and prefers Alexandra.
Something as benign as forcing a hypocorism onto someone is probably very maddening and a clue into how his lack of respect for her as an adult intersects with his husbandly ignorance of her feelings in general.
- Nov 23, 2002
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- Nov 23, 2002
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one thing i will say in its favour is it looked a little better than i expected. i looked up who did the cinematography afterwards and it was the guy who did the original fucking texas chainsaw massacre?! and my god, that guy has been slumming it for nearly 50 years now. he actually primarily does music videos and has worked with just about every popular artist from the mid '80s to mid '00s (including several videos that i'm familiar with), maybe they should've let him do the fucking editing as well.
anyone else notice the multiple apocalypse now references in this btw?
"oh, a comedian!"
"this seem funny to you?"
"aw shit!"
"you just killed the one person who had a soul!"
"yeah, well what does that make you?"
"aw shit!"
i at least thought it'd lead to her turning out to be a budding psycho herself, but it doesn't seem to have had any kind of tangible effect beyond her being able to beat up some guy and being really really scared of driver. in retrospect she was such a shit character, his relationship with the girlfriend who hilariously suicided her throat onto a knife would've been a lot more interesting to pursue, but then i suppose it wouldn't be thematic.
riddick came out a year later with exactly the same premise: the besieged shitheads infighting and not realising they're prey, the constant mythologising of their predator, the way he stealthily slips in and out of windows and toys with them etc. there must be a movie that inspired a spate of these things around that time but i'm not sure what it is.
anyone else notice the multiple apocalypse now references in this btw?
"oh, a comedian!"
"this seem funny to you?"
"aw shit!"
"you just killed the one person who had a soul!"
"yeah, well what does that make you?"
"aw shit!"
i at least thought it'd lead to her turning out to be a budding psycho herself, but it doesn't seem to have had any kind of tangible effect beyond her being able to beat up some guy and being really really scared of driver. in retrospect she was such a shit character, his relationship with the girlfriend who hilariously suicided her throat onto a knife would've been a lot more interesting to pursue, but then i suppose it wouldn't be thematic.
riddick came out a year later with exactly the same premise: the besieged shitheads infighting and not realising they're prey, the constant mythologising of their predator, the way he stealthily slips in and out of windows and toys with them etc. there must be a movie that inspired a spate of these things around that time but i'm not sure what it is.
challenge_everything
Active Member
- Nov 23, 2002
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just wainds i think. he’s watched everything now, the lazy shit just needs to post his thoughts and then we can wrap up.
CiG
Dimension Hatröss
Rewatched that Korean film Bedevilled last night. Realised it would've been thematically perfect here, and especially would've complimented Alexandra's Project nicely.
- Nov 23, 2002
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4) no one lives
said all i wanted to say lol. i kinda feel bad for encouraging AbelTim to go with an alt instead of martyrs now. 1/5
3) black book
i think that many of verhoeven's films have at their core this idea that the stories we tell ourselves about our identities are a self-serving sham, and i'm certain he would hold up the award-winning hollywood holocaust dramas of the last few decades as perfect examples of this. knowing his other work, i find it hard to believe that the surface prestige and slickness of this film is in earnest; rather, much like with starship troopers, i think he mimics and inhabits the enemy so he can unlock the back door and let in some uncomfortable truths. the fact that it superficially resembles an award-winner means it provides a subversive jolt when the good guys act like cunts and at least one of the bad guys ain't so bad, or the heroine shamelessly flaunts her big jewish tits for self-preservation, and all the other trashy touches he sneaks in there. verhoeven understands that genre tropes are what grab an audience by the throat and the balls, and that the only way to tackle a subject like the holocaust is to first acknowledge that it happened to, and because of, ordinary people who beneath their personas fuck and shit and act in their own interest according to their natures. that dividing the characters into symbolic victims and monsters for us to pity and admire from the comfort of our seat intellectualises and others the whole thing in a way that's counter-productive. this twitter lib trend of analogising every right wing viewpoint with nazism is childish, but i do think nazism was just a particularly extreme runaway manifestation of mundane human flaws and that we've never evolved beyond its reach in the way we'd like to think. the ending is rather subtle in its intent but i read it as expressing the same, ironically showing how her prize for surviving the holocaust was an idyllic little prison amidst another campaign of oppression, framed differently but rooted in many of the same impulses.
all of that said, the stuff i've described above is kind of intermittent here. a lot of the time it's just a fun, silly holocaust thriller rather than anything truly provocative, and that's fine, but i did think it could've been more honed. i wasn't bored at any point, but i did want more scenes that give you what you want while simultaneously making you squirm from how seen you feel, and probably less of the stuff that's just beyond dopey e.g. the moralising dude with the glasses. i think the superior version of this may be lina wertmuller's seven beauties, which takes the idea of a tasteless sleazy holocaust picture and runs even further with it, 30 years earlier, complete with shit and interracial sex as prominent motifs (no doubt verhoeven was a fan). 3/5
2) point blank
melville's genre abstractions, antonioni's architectural alienation, the hipness, colour and spontaneity of godard or roeg, the oneiric editing of resnais or deren, the cold brutality of kiss me deadly and the terminator. it echoes and anticipates so many things, but there's nothing quite like it. most of the things i mention aren't exactly favourites of mine--my tastes lean more toward the expressionist and classical rather than abstract european ennui/alienation of the '60s onward--and i do agree with the consensus that for stretches this is more admirable than enjoyable, and that some of the sixties stylings have not aged well. it's just such a unique movie in totality, though. a definitive capitalist nightmare, all the warmth and the specificity drained away and the characters so locked into this endless, violent transactional cycle that they barely have any kind of history or identity, and in fact barely derive any satisfaction from the circle being completed (i like the way marvin plays it, it's refreshingly against-type for expectations of both the genre and the actor and i think the lack of even a quiet kind of charisma is well suited to something that's ultimately so pathetic and pointless). it's really unsettling how much the usual genre comforts have been stripped away and replaced by nothing at all beyond unrelenting, uncompromising forward motion for the sake of it. you wouldn't necessarily expect it if your knowledge of boorman is limited to deliverance, but the guy really made some strange shit. 3.5/5
1) alexandra's project
the early '00s was such a weird time for cinema in retrospect. from the late '90s onward cinema became obsessed with the onset of video and what this blurring between public and private, image and reality, meant about our sense of self, home, agency, security, etc, often utilising a VHS aesthetic (which have actually improved over time IMO at least for my generation, nowadays they feel like the subconscious bubbling up through a hole), but also culminating in hanekés turn of the century work--surely an influence here--where the camera is judge, jury and executioner. it's interesting to consider why alexandra decides to use video to express herself; the obvious reason is that it provides a 'safe space' from which he can't talk over her or manipulate her, but it's also an ironic literalisation of the way she's felt reduced to a fantasy image for years, a VERY ironic deconstruction of the halcyon family "home video" this begins as, and comes from an understanding of how cameras and screens can be weaponised against us as much they can be used to comfort or titillate us, increasingly capable of blurring boundaries between truth and fantasy now that they've invaded the home as well. a movie can be stopped but it can't be molded to suit our own narratives, and if we're unable to stop watching we can become the seen and controlled, helpless and naked in their light (made literal in the switch to the live feed, during which it becomes clear that she actually IS watching him, and he actually CAN'T stop it). like ein said, the location reveal is smart as well, not a rug-pull but an entire house-pull, embodying how the pair of them have metaphorically been living in very different worlds for a long time now, even if those worlds look exactly the same to the passive observer.
what this movie really gets right in the writing is not overstating the scumminess of the husband. of course, the whole point is that he isn't some monster but rather a standard douchey guy with typical male entitlement, materialism, ego, sex drive, wandering eyes, objectification of women an so forth, which is why the viewing experience--often putting us in his seat and looking through his eyes--is uncomfortable for men in the audience as well. this is a problem with a lot of modern revenge flicks, the avengees are usually monstrous enough that we can't see ourselves in them so we gleefully root for the avenger, whereas here the avengee's abuse is subtle enough, and the avenger's methods extreme enough, that we're uncomfortably sympathising with both sides. it really gets the balance right between a slightly vacuous corporate dude who loves his family and just wanted to enjoy his birthday, and a low-key misogynistic control-freak who has progressively exploited and humiliated his wife for years. the same applies with alexandra as well, i really liked her performance which is perfectly pitched between psychotic shrew and trapped, jaded housewife who's doing this as a last resort for her own mental health. i'm not saying they're a typical couple in a typical marriage, necessarily, but it's all banal and familiar enough that it demands introspection from the audience about their own relationships, and perhaps about what they're really watching movies for as well--i know next time i see a striptease in any context this will probably come to mind.
of course, for that reason it also works as a societal critique as well. i don't know about how a court would rule (i assume not in alexandra's favour), but you just need to browse a few of the more negative letterboxd reviews to see how many people find alexandra's behaviour ludicrously disproportionate. maybe it is to a point, but it's a little disturbing to me that some people are unable to comprehend how a woman could be led to such a point in a world where men like steve are accepted and even praised as the norm. she had me sold, that's for sure. with that in mind i think the best classic comparison point for this film might be jeanne dielman, especially given the revelation of her working as a mistress. don't necessarily treat that as a recommendation as that film is much easier to admire and discuss than it is to enjoy (it makes point blank seem like a crowdpleasing blockbuster), but it is really the grandmother of films like this and i notice its tendrils more and more in modern cinema--wouldn't be surprised to see it break the all-time top 25 in the imminent sight and sound polls, too.
the final comparison i wanted to make is with black book though: i mentioned verhoeven's cynicism about the stories we tell ourselves, and it's fair to say that steve's told himself a few tales about what a wholesome guy he is, tales which alexandra's about to puncture like a needle through a nipple (much like in verhoeven's film she's partly gonna use her tits to do it, albeit in hilariously different ways). both films want us to consider whether, individually and culturally, we're a little more fascist then we prefer to believe. 3.5/5
said all i wanted to say lol. i kinda feel bad for encouraging AbelTim to go with an alt instead of martyrs now. 1/5
3) black book
i think that many of verhoeven's films have at their core this idea that the stories we tell ourselves about our identities are a self-serving sham, and i'm certain he would hold up the award-winning hollywood holocaust dramas of the last few decades as perfect examples of this. knowing his other work, i find it hard to believe that the surface prestige and slickness of this film is in earnest; rather, much like with starship troopers, i think he mimics and inhabits the enemy so he can unlock the back door and let in some uncomfortable truths. the fact that it superficially resembles an award-winner means it provides a subversive jolt when the good guys act like cunts and at least one of the bad guys ain't so bad, or the heroine shamelessly flaunts her big jewish tits for self-preservation, and all the other trashy touches he sneaks in there. verhoeven understands that genre tropes are what grab an audience by the throat and the balls, and that the only way to tackle a subject like the holocaust is to first acknowledge that it happened to, and because of, ordinary people who beneath their personas fuck and shit and act in their own interest according to their natures. that dividing the characters into symbolic victims and monsters for us to pity and admire from the comfort of our seat intellectualises and others the whole thing in a way that's counter-productive. this twitter lib trend of analogising every right wing viewpoint with nazism is childish, but i do think nazism was just a particularly extreme runaway manifestation of mundane human flaws and that we've never evolved beyond its reach in the way we'd like to think. the ending is rather subtle in its intent but i read it as expressing the same, ironically showing how her prize for surviving the holocaust was an idyllic little prison amidst another campaign of oppression, framed differently but rooted in many of the same impulses.
all of that said, the stuff i've described above is kind of intermittent here. a lot of the time it's just a fun, silly holocaust thriller rather than anything truly provocative, and that's fine, but i did think it could've been more honed. i wasn't bored at any point, but i did want more scenes that give you what you want while simultaneously making you squirm from how seen you feel, and probably less of the stuff that's just beyond dopey e.g. the moralising dude with the glasses. i think the superior version of this may be lina wertmuller's seven beauties, which takes the idea of a tasteless sleazy holocaust picture and runs even further with it, 30 years earlier, complete with shit and interracial sex as prominent motifs (no doubt verhoeven was a fan). 3/5
2) point blank
melville's genre abstractions, antonioni's architectural alienation, the hipness, colour and spontaneity of godard or roeg, the oneiric editing of resnais or deren, the cold brutality of kiss me deadly and the terminator. it echoes and anticipates so many things, but there's nothing quite like it. most of the things i mention aren't exactly favourites of mine--my tastes lean more toward the expressionist and classical rather than abstract european ennui/alienation of the '60s onward--and i do agree with the consensus that for stretches this is more admirable than enjoyable, and that some of the sixties stylings have not aged well. it's just such a unique movie in totality, though. a definitive capitalist nightmare, all the warmth and the specificity drained away and the characters so locked into this endless, violent transactional cycle that they barely have any kind of history or identity, and in fact barely derive any satisfaction from the circle being completed (i like the way marvin plays it, it's refreshingly against-type for expectations of both the genre and the actor and i think the lack of even a quiet kind of charisma is well suited to something that's ultimately so pathetic and pointless). it's really unsettling how much the usual genre comforts have been stripped away and replaced by nothing at all beyond unrelenting, uncompromising forward motion for the sake of it. you wouldn't necessarily expect it if your knowledge of boorman is limited to deliverance, but the guy really made some strange shit. 3.5/5
1) alexandra's project
the early '00s was such a weird time for cinema in retrospect. from the late '90s onward cinema became obsessed with the onset of video and what this blurring between public and private, image and reality, meant about our sense of self, home, agency, security, etc, often utilising a VHS aesthetic (which have actually improved over time IMO at least for my generation, nowadays they feel like the subconscious bubbling up through a hole), but also culminating in hanekés turn of the century work--surely an influence here--where the camera is judge, jury and executioner. it's interesting to consider why alexandra decides to use video to express herself; the obvious reason is that it provides a 'safe space' from which he can't talk over her or manipulate her, but it's also an ironic literalisation of the way she's felt reduced to a fantasy image for years, a VERY ironic deconstruction of the halcyon family "home video" this begins as, and comes from an understanding of how cameras and screens can be weaponised against us as much they can be used to comfort or titillate us, increasingly capable of blurring boundaries between truth and fantasy now that they've invaded the home as well. a movie can be stopped but it can't be molded to suit our own narratives, and if we're unable to stop watching we can become the seen and controlled, helpless and naked in their light (made literal in the switch to the live feed, during which it becomes clear that she actually IS watching him, and he actually CAN'T stop it). like ein said, the location reveal is smart as well, not a rug-pull but an entire house-pull, embodying how the pair of them have metaphorically been living in very different worlds for a long time now, even if those worlds look exactly the same to the passive observer.
what this movie really gets right in the writing is not overstating the scumminess of the husband. of course, the whole point is that he isn't some monster but rather a standard douchey guy with typical male entitlement, materialism, ego, sex drive, wandering eyes, objectification of women an so forth, which is why the viewing experience--often putting us in his seat and looking through his eyes--is uncomfortable for men in the audience as well. this is a problem with a lot of modern revenge flicks, the avengees are usually monstrous enough that we can't see ourselves in them so we gleefully root for the avenger, whereas here the avengee's abuse is subtle enough, and the avenger's methods extreme enough, that we're uncomfortably sympathising with both sides. it really gets the balance right between a slightly vacuous corporate dude who loves his family and just wanted to enjoy his birthday, and a low-key misogynistic control-freak who has progressively exploited and humiliated his wife for years. the same applies with alexandra as well, i really liked her performance which is perfectly pitched between psychotic shrew and trapped, jaded housewife who's doing this as a last resort for her own mental health. i'm not saying they're a typical couple in a typical marriage, necessarily, but it's all banal and familiar enough that it demands introspection from the audience about their own relationships, and perhaps about what they're really watching movies for as well--i know next time i see a striptease in any context this will probably come to mind.
of course, for that reason it also works as a societal critique as well. i don't know about how a court would rule (i assume not in alexandra's favour), but you just need to browse a few of the more negative letterboxd reviews to see how many people find alexandra's behaviour ludicrously disproportionate. maybe it is to a point, but it's a little disturbing to me that some people are unable to comprehend how a woman could be led to such a point in a world where men like steve are accepted and even praised as the norm. she had me sold, that's for sure. with that in mind i think the best classic comparison point for this film might be jeanne dielman, especially given the revelation of her working as a mistress. don't necessarily treat that as a recommendation as that film is much easier to admire and discuss than it is to enjoy (it makes point blank seem like a crowdpleasing blockbuster), but it is really the grandmother of films like this and i notice its tendrils more and more in modern cinema--wouldn't be surprised to see it break the all-time top 25 in the imminent sight and sound polls, too.
the final comparison i wanted to make is with black book though: i mentioned verhoeven's cynicism about the stories we tell ourselves, and it's fair to say that steve's told himself a few tales about what a wholesome guy he is, tales which alexandra's about to puncture like a needle through a nipple (much like in verhoeven's film she's partly gonna use her tits to do it, albeit in hilariously different ways). both films want us to consider whether, individually and culturally, we're a little more fascist then we prefer to believe. 3.5/5
Vegard Pompey
ALLY TO GOOD, NIGHTMARE TO YOU
- Nov 23, 2002
- 26,609
- 9,614
- 113
GMD Movie Club #1: Revenge Results
1. Alexandra's Project (@challenge_everything) 22.5
2. Black Book (@rms) 21
3. Point Blank (@no country for old wainds) 18.5
4. No One Lives (@AbelTim) 8
congratulations to @challenge_everything! did i miss rms ranking them somewhere? based on his ratings i counted alexandra's project and point blank as tied for him, but it wouldn't have made a difference anyway.
time to change channels for the next theme... wait, why isn't the remote working??
1. Alexandra's Project (@challenge_everything) 22.5
2. Black Book (@rms) 21
3. Point Blank (@no country for old wainds) 18.5
4. No One Lives (@AbelTim) 8
congratulations to @challenge_everything! did i miss rms ranking them somewhere? based on his ratings i counted alexandra's project and point blank as tied for him, but it wouldn't have made a difference anyway.
time to change channels for the next theme... wait, why isn't the remote working??
- Nov 23, 2002
- 26,609
- 9,614
- 113
well 3.5 is equivalent to 5 on my criticker which is equivalent to 77th percentile currently, so that's pretty high! feels about right tbh.
Vegard Pompey
ALLY TO GOOD, NIGHTMARE TO YOU
I take it @challenge_everything gets to pick the next theme?
CiG
Dimension Hatröss
I think the main reason so many people view Alexandra's revenge as disproportionate is due to the children being weaponised against Steve.
I randomly watched a YouTuber negatively review the movie once, and his comment section was 90% negative too. On the basis of this disproportionality. If they were a childless couple the story would've been a lot less ethically messy, but also a lot less interesting and a lot more impotent (lol).
Anyways keen for the next theme!
I randomly watched a YouTuber negatively review the movie once, and his comment section was 90% negative too. On the basis of this disproportionality. If they were a childless couple the story would've been a lot less ethically messy, but also a lot less interesting and a lot more impotent (lol).
Anyways keen for the next theme!
Last edited:
challenge_everything
Active Member
They were fairly small actually; I feel like that undermines your entire review.
challenge_everything
Active Member
For anyone who enjoyed Alexandra's Project, I recommend Rolf de Heer's other work too especially Bad Boy Bubby which happens to be my wife's favourite movie. Incidentally my wife watched all these movie club offerings as well. Her rankings were as per the final list.
CiG
Dimension Hatröss
Made me lol but Carice van Houten's tits are definitely not "fairly small" mate.
The Tracker and Charlie's Country are my recommendations.
challenge_everything
Active Member
challenge_everything
Active Member
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