THE OFFICIAL DREAM THEATER DISCUSSION THREAD

[meisteh]

thanks for the update


edit: oh snuck in

 

[FatalDreams]

What I don't understand is why everyone bitch before even doing research and keep blaming DT for overpricing or whatever?

Just read: http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=397307

DT is not related to all of this.
And BTW - If it were Symphony X, I assure you all of you guys would be silent now. Jeez.

 

[Yngvai X]

Fuck your definitions of professional bands then. There's far too many successful (as in, musically important, influential, and lasting) bands that are not meeting this definition of 'professional'.

The soul is valued in a currency not representable by digits.

Name em. While we're at, I'll name one that fits my definition extremely well: Iron fucking Maiden.

 

[Horus]

I don't care if Iron Maiden should've lasted or not, I still like them.

 

[Earth Breather]

so....when can I get normal seating tickets?

 

[Yngvai X]

In the end, even though it's a business, the music, the passion and all that is what's important. That's what made the band speak to you in the first place, and that should never be overlooked. making the business the forefront really makes it difficult to focus on that.

I don't think anyone defending DT in this instance is claiming otherwise (including myself). The creative process and the artistry of music is always the first and foremost. However along the road business descisions have to be made, and the business side of it has to be addressed. It sucks. Speaking from first hand experience, when you are dealing with the headaches associated with the business side of music it SUCKS BIGTIME. It is liable to destroy the FUN of making and creating music. The bands that know how to survive it (financially and mentally) are the ones with longevity.

Dream Theater have stated the reasons for the platinum passes being to help fund the added light show and video screens. They are doing things on a larger scale than a lot of other bands in the genre to give a better show experience to their fans. I don't understand how this is somehow negating the sincerety of their music. They want to provide a more elaborate show for FANS. A more elaborate show *costs more money*. Their manager finds a way to generate the extra revenue that also benefits fans wanting to spend the extra cash. Where in this picture is Dream Theater turning into a band that is in it for the money and not for the musical gratification?

This is exactly why i stopped listening to this genre of music. Largely, power and prog bands have an underlying rockstar mentality and want to be treated as such. They think they deserve things just because they write music, like hot girls, people to wait on them hand and foot, etc. In death metal, they play because they generally enjoy driving around in a beater van that will probably break down on them somewhere in kansas. It's still largely a pure musical form, and i fucking love that. There are exceptions to both statements, and i understand that. I'm making generalities though.

I don't think the death metal bands are in broken down vans because they want to be, I think its because they can't afford anything better. You can't tell me if you went up to a band that had to put up with a shitty broken down Uhaul and asked them if they'd like a nice charter bus instead that they'd turn it down. The generalization against power and prog bands is skewed too, because look at how well powermetal sells in Europe. Stratovarius' last contract was what... 1.5 million euro? Theres a reason these bands might expect to be treated better on tour, because they can usually afford it more than underground death bands. If you are insinuating that this makes them stuck up towards fans, I don't see this either. You've been to progpower. Most of these bands are more than happy to spend time with their fans. There are stuck up egos no matter what level of success.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Name em. While we're at, I'll name one that fits my definition extremely well: Iron fucking Maiden.

While we're at it, I'll go ahead and stick you in the money-grubbers camp. uke:

Name successful, influential bands that didn't market lunchboxes and sell their t-shirts and vip tickets at hot topic and fye? Why don't you name all the founders of death and black metal. Dream Theater is not a band anymore in the same sense that GE is not an electric company anymore. These people expand and expand into every possible outlet of cash they can find, and the result? Dillution of the original focus. You want me to make it clear? I think it's VERY clear already, but I suppose some people only see $$$.

When a band makes music they're passionate about, that's respectable. When the band sells that music on an album to fund future releases or support themselves, that's respectable. When a band films a DVD of a concert and sells that, that's respectable.

When a band sells special tickets that essentially undermines the typical, historical mechanic of live shows, this is NOT respectable. Generally speaking, the big fans will show up hours before the casual followers, and though both pay the same ticket price, the former gets the benefit of being first in line and first to the barrier. Their enthusiasm is itself a VIP ticket to be closest to the band. The result? The front of a gig is filled with the most hardcore of fans. When a band instead blocks off these seats and SELLS them for more than triple the price, just to make a buck, this means the front row will not be filled with the most enthusiastic fans. It will be filled with the richest fans, and I have a SERIOUS problem with that attitude.

Next on the list, backstage passes for a price. They're selling a poster, an autograph to go with the poster, and a Q&A with the band. If the band wants to make any cash off of this, they have to DENY these things to those without the VIP status. AKA they're forced to be assholes. It cheapens interaction between band and fans, and it is the equivalent of a tourist paying for the experience one can genuinely have for free with a degree of effort. This culture is disgusting, lazy, wealth-driven, and undermining the very core of live music.

So again, fuck that bullshit, I will buy regular admission if I even attend, and I would rather attend a concert such as Anathema, Orphaned Land, Zero Hour, Opeth, Katatonia, Dark Tranquillity, Scar Symmetry, Evergrey, After Forever, Threshold, Nightingale/Edge of Sanity, Porcupine Tree, Fates Warning, or any such band in which hanging out with the band comes at no extra charge, because they are decent people.

As for light shows, is this a metal concert or is this a circus production? Trans-Siberian Orchestra fucked themselves over by spending more and more and more on lasers and booking arenas, and now their shows are utter crap. In fact, they're the same every year except with more lights. No new album. It's like KISS. You just play the same shit each time, new spectacle. It's all business, no art.

You wanna be a poser and pay to talk to somebody, go ahead Moliti.

PS: If Dark Empire ever enjoyed the kind of influence and success you're talking about, would you charge me $300 to talk to you? I'd certainly not consider such as worth the money. Some bands are real people. Others are corporate zombies.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Dream Theater have stated the reasons for the platinum passes being to help fund the added light show and video screens. They are doing things on a larger scale than a lot of other bands in the genre to give a better show experience to their fans. I don't understand how this is somehow negating the sincerety of their music. They want to provide a more elaborate show for FANS. A more elaborate show *costs more money*. Their manager finds a way to generate the extra revenue that also benefits fans wanting to spend the extra cash. Where in this picture is Dream Theater turning into a band that is in it for the money and not for the musical gratification?

Well, dream theater's live performance is hardly riviting... they need SOMETHING to make it worth going to. Why is it that Dream Theater can play larger venues, but a band like Suffocation will always be more interesting to see live in a shitty little club?

I don't think the death metal bands are in broken down vans because they want to be, I think its because they can't afford anything better. You can't tell me if you went up to a band that had to put up with a shitty broken down Uhaul and asked them if they'd like a nice charter bus instead that they'd turn it down. The generalization against power and prog bands is skewed too, because look at how well powermetal sells in Europe. Stratovarius' last contract was what... 1.5 million euro? Theres a reason these bands might expect to be treated better on tour, because they can usually afford it more than underground death bands. If you are insinuating that this makes them stuck up towards fans, I don't see this either. You've been to progpower. Most of these bands are more than happy to spend time with their fans. There are stuck up egos no matter what level of success.

First of all, I believe strato's contract was for 1 mil, which was voided by the way...
Second, yes. There are musicians who have said they much rather have the shitty van and a u-haul because it's part of the experiance, so on and so forth.
Also, i'll admit i probably worded my rant poorly, and it's not so much that they enjoy it, but are much more willing to do what it takes to bring their music to audiences, which often includes less than amazing touring conditions. I have never gone to a power metal show and seen vans pulled up out front with them unloading gear. Ever. Sure, they can afford it, and that's great, but there's also a reason why Edguy had to wait until their 6th studio release (or however many) to come to america with a charter bus and decapitated has done 4 or 5 tours after 4 albums, not to mention their debut came out 5 years later than edguy's debut.

The point is, death metal is more motivated. There is less of a market, but bands are willing to do more for less. It is a dedication and a love for the music that most bands just aren't willing to put out. I'm sure you're reading this saying they're chumps for buying into this, but for myself and legions of other fans, it's more important to have that devotion and dedication rather than a dream theater thong or cock ring.

As a final comment, i'm going to be Ken's butt-buddy on this (we swordfight, it's true) and say regardless of them trying to bring a "better show" to their fans, it's fucked up to say that the few should pay more for the benifit of the whole. And really, let the music speak for itself if it's really so fucken great. Again, i'd rather see Incanation again which is three dudes on a bare stage banging their heads and playing some fucken death metal than a big light show with screens that distract you from the shit that's going on onstage.

Luv u ken *smack's Ken's ass*

 

[dargormudshark]

You wanna be a poser and pay to talk to somebody, go ahead Moliti.

How is that being a poser, I would pay to talk to some people...probably not that much and especially not to Dream Theater but you have to keep in mind they can't talk to every fan. Although i'm sure you understand that, the band is providing a service to fans who are interested in getting better seats with some extra perks..that service comes at a cost, as everything does. As far as the fans who wait outside all day, I do agree this is a better way BUT what about the majority of shows which are not general admission. Atleast in Houston, Tx is they aren't at a club...its usually not general admission. And alot of times its probably not up to the band but up to the promoter.

PS: If Dark Empire ever enjoyed the kind of influence and success you're talking about, would you charge me $300 to talk to you? I'd certainly not consider such as worth the money. Some bands are real people. Others are corporate zombies.

[/QUOTE]

And some people are assholes, some people are nice...and where is this line drawn?

 

[Tubbs]

Heh, my band has played 4 shows so far and we haven't gotten paid for any of them. If we ever do set a price, it would either be just enough to get better quality equipment to play more shows, or to pay for the cost of renting out a place to play in. That's how it should be iyam.

 

[Yngvai X]

While we're at it, I'll go ahead and stick you in the money-grubbers camp. uke:

Thats fine. In fact, I appreciate the assumption that I'm only doing this for money. No really. Nevermind the fact that I haven't broken even from Dark Empire, and have put myself into debt for it, just so I can share my creation with the world, with the hope that someday I might actually be able to do what I love for a living. Yes, I must only be in it for the money

Name successful, influential bands that didn't market lunchboxes and sell their t-shirts and vip tickets at hot topic and fye? Why don't you name all the founders of death and black metal.

Those Immortal and Emperor t shirts I saw at Hot Topic were pretty sweet.

Dream Theater is not a band anymore in the same sense that GE is not an electric company anymore. These people expand and expand into every possible outlet of cash they can find, and the result? Dillution of the original focus. You want me to make it clear? I think it's VERY clear already, but I suppose some people only see $$$.

So what you're saying is that there is somehow an acceptable threshold of how much a band can earn from their art? Who decides this? What is your personal cut off? If a band member makes 30 grand a year off of his band its ok, but if he starts making 40 grand, watch out, he's only in it for money and has "lost focus", even though its quite presumptuous for you to decide if an artist has "lost focus", especially based on the amount of t shirt designs they have for sale. I guess Roger Waters lost a shitload of focus when Pink Floyd made The Wall, what with the tie-in movie, extravagant concert performances, t shirts, fuck Ive seen stuffed "pink" dolls too. I used to think The Wall was a briliant artistic statement, thank you for showing me the light.

When a band makes music they're passionate about, that's respectable. When the band sells that music on an album to fund future releases or support themselves, that's respectable. When a band films a DVD of a concert and sells that, that's respectable.

So when a band puts out bullshit like a live album and DVD after every major tour with the same damn setlist, aside from 1 or 2 new songs, thats respectable? Or should I say, somehow different than coming out with a new t shirt design or two?

When a band sells special tickets that essentially undermines the typical, historical mechanic of live shows, this is NOT respectable. Generally speaking, the big fans will show up hours before the casual followers, and though both pay the same ticket price, the former gets the benefit of being first in line and first to the barrier. Their enthusiasm is itself a VIP ticket to be closest to the band. The result? The front of a gig is filled with the most hardcore of fans.

Yea, for GA shows. This is totally cool and, I agree, part of many a concert experience. I myself have waited extra early for a show just to get right up front many times.

When it is a *seated* venue, this of course is a different story. First of all, its often the venues that set prices for tickets, or at least a baseline that they need to make and then the artist can charge however much more or less they want. Think of the luxury you have with a ticket for a front row seat above a GA show. Your spot is reserved for you, you can show up whenever you want and have it, you can get up to go to the bathroom or get a drink and come right back to it. Not to mention you're close up. Why the hell shouldn't a venue charge more for an in demand seat if they want to?

Most metal shows are in GA venues because they can't fill a venue large enough for seats. Granted, this is part of what makes a metal show cool... they're cheap (usually), you can get up front simply by being early, you can jump in the pit and bash some peoples heads in if thats your thing, get smushed up against some dude with really bad BO... its awesome (Im not being sarcastic either, this all adds to the vibe of going to a metal show, I think).

But yea, seated venues, you are now in a venue with the luxury of having your spot reserved for you, and dammit if the venue isn't going to make you pay a little more (or a lot more) for that luxury. And don't ever go to a symphony, opera, theater performance, or any other performance art like that, cause from my understanding, they usually only have those in seated venues. Perhaps the BSO or New York Philharmonic forgot the historical mechanics of going to see a performance.

When a band instead blocks off these seats and SELLS them for more than triple the price, just to make a buck, this means the front row will not be filled with the most enthusiastic fans. It will be filled with the richest fans, and I have a SERIOUS problem with that attitude.

Yea, it sucks. I agree its sheisty, I think 300 bucks for a close up seat and VIP pass is too much. I don't disagree with you or Zach on that. I disagree with the assertion that the band is somehow violating the audiences right to see a concert to charge that much, and that if they do, they're somehow money grubbing fiends that don't care about music anymore.

Lets look at the reason Portnoy gave for WHY their *manager* came up with the idea to do this. To help pay for the extra cost of a light show and screens. This is part of the *performance*. I get the impression that you can't understand that there is an art to performance. There are people who don't write music but love to fucking death the art of performing it. There are people who love both. If Dream Theater want to aid in their performance and bring a more elaborate show to their fans, which costs more money to put on, where is it written that this makes them care less about fans and more about money? If I ran a market and the cost of bringing food in went up, does it somehow mean I want my customers to starve because I have to charge more money on my product to cover my overhead?

As for light shows, is this a metal concert or is this a circus production? Trans-Siberian Orchestra fucked themselves over by spending more and more and more on lasers and booking arenas, and now their shows are utter crap. In fact, they're the same every year except with more lights. No new album. It's like KISS. You just play the same shit each time, new spectacle. It's all business, no art.

For the record, unless you wanna sound like a gigantic hypocrite, don't ever praise Mozart or Wagner for their art, because those motherfuckers put on operatic performances that, for their time, made TSO look like a petting zoo. Or Pink Floyd. And To my knowladge Don Giovanni plays out the same way every time.

Next on the list, backstage passes for a price. They're selling a poster, an autograph to go with the poster, and a Q&A with the band. If the band wants to make any cash off of this, they have to DENY these things to those without the VIP status. AKA they're forced to be assholes. It cheapens interaction between band and fans, and it is the equivalent of a tourist paying for the experience one can genuinely have for free with a degree of effort. This culture is disgusting, lazy, wealth-driven, and undermining the very core of live music.

This is true, yea. Why would they make themselves available to everyone and then make some people pay 300 bucks to see em, thus cheapening the point of having the VIP tickets. However, this is going on the assumption that a band is somehow obligated to spend time with their fans after shows. I don't know about you, but I think it would be shittier if the only reason a band was making themselves available to meet fans would be because they were obligated to do it, and not because they really wanted to. Interaction between band and fans? The only interaction your ticket price gives you is a (hopefully) kick the fuck ass show. If a band member (or members) WANTS TO spend time with fans afterwards, that is their choice. (and just for the record, I love talking to anyone who would call themselves a fan of my music, and I don't feel obligated to do it, I enjoy it and want to do it).

Please elaborate on what the very core of live music is too, because from what I gather, in your perfect world, it is free GA concerts where the funding magically appears to put the show on. That kind of idealism was put into effect at one point in our history actually, then the Soviet Union fell.

So again, fuck that bullshit, I will buy regular admission if I even attend, and I would rather attend a concert such as Anathema, Orphaned Land, Zero Hour, Opeth, Katatonia, Dark Tranquillity, Scar Symmetry, Evergrey, After Forever, Threshold, Nightingale/Edge of Sanity, Porcupine Tree, Fates Warning, or any such band in which hanging out with the band comes at no extra charge, because they are decent people.

Because they are outgoing people. There are plenty of artists who are very introverted and unsocial, but apparently this makes them ungrateful of their fans too. Ive seen you praise Pain of Salvation before, and they were the single most unsocial band at Progpower V, not a single member hung out with anyone, and actually called to complain to the hotel that the people partying were making too much noise. Horrible money grubbers that don't give a shit about their fans, right?

You wanna be a poser and pay to talk to somebody, go ahead Moliti.

Well, I'm already paying 50 bucks a month to argue with you on the internet

PS: If Dark Empire ever enjoyed the kind of influence and success you're talking about, would you charge me $300 to talk to you? I'd certainly not consider such as worth the money. Some bands are real people. Others are corporate zombies.

Nah. As I've stated I think the VIP tickets are too much, I'm simply defending Dream Theater's right to charge that much. I wouldn't pay 300 bucks to talk to me I know you have it in your head that any performer putting on more than a GA show where tickets are 20 bucks are somehow not real artists or just in it for the cash.

I don't know if you know who Bumblefoot is, but he is one of the single greatest musical and artistic minds I've ever had the pleasure of spending time with. He is also one of the single most genuinely pleasant people I've ever met. He's someone that you would meet and it would actually give you hope for humanity to know that people like him exist. he also plays guitar in Guns n Roses, one of the biggest "corperate rock" bands out there. Someone like you would take one look at him on stage and think of him as a souless corperate zombie. I look at him on stage with GnR and I see: 1) someone who loves to perform for people, because it makes people happy 2) someone who is providing for his wife, paying his bills, and putting food on his plate, and 3) someone who is providing himself with the financial means to support his own solo creative endeavors.

Jokes on you, then.

edit: actually, I did at one point pay over 600 dollars to see a band. I flew to Germany just to see my favorite band, Rage, because they never tour or play in the US. It was a regular show, no festival or anything. And for the record, my friend, unbeknownst to me, told their (now ex) drummer about it via email, and he thought that was so awesome he put all of us on the guest list and got in for free (and yes, got a chance to meet the band and get pics/autographs and the bar after the show). But to me, it was worth it to shell out that much money to see Rage, because thats how big of a fan I am. So maybe to some Dream Theater fans its worth it to shell out 300 bucks to see em up close and meet em.

 

[reidie]

Mod's can you change the title of this thread to "Debate with Kenneth...may also contain DT related discussion "?

 

[Horus]

To add onto the part of Matt's post about charging for up front seats....

If Sports Teams are allowed to charge more money for better seats like box seats all the way up front or charge by section, then why can't bands do the same?

 

[Meedleyx10]

Well.....Matt pretty much nailed everything on the head.

Matt wins the shit out of this thread.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

I guess DT is at a time where they are so damn good at making music that they don't really give it all that much thought.... mainly because the first idea that comes to them is probably a good one. This "cruisy" sorta approach could be taken as doing it for the money or whatever, but imo I just think its cos of the reason I stated. Bands that struggle for years getting an album together (like symx and tool) are not necessarily doing it more for the music, but that timeframe kinda makes it look that way.

I could be wrong, but thats how I see it.

 

[Horus]

There are just some artists who have the gift of Melody. Paul McCartney can hum the first thing that pops into his head and it could become a masterpiece within a matter of hours; so why can't Dream Theater do the same?

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

I was bored today so I tabbed out the first 30% or so of Constant Motion on bass. It's in .gp5 format, so let me know if anyone wants it.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

lulz, anger on teh intarwebz over oppinion.

 

[PoisonSeed]

lulz, anger on teh intarwebz over oppinion.

lulz

 

[J-Dubya 777]

Dream Theater have stated the reasons for the platinum passes being to help fund the added light show and video screens. They are doing things on a larger scale than a lot of other bands in the genre to give a better show experience to their fans. I don't understand how this is somehow negating the sincerety of their music. They want to provide a more elaborate show for FANS. A more elaborate show *costs more money*. Their manager finds a way to generate the extra revenue that also benefits fans wanting to spend the extra cash. Where in this picture is Dream Theater turning into a band that is in it for the money and not for the musical gratification?

YOU Sir, are not an Arteeest, unless you suffer....
While I don't PERSONALLY like the whole preferred seating thing, for a lot of the same reasons Ken mentioned, I also don't think a band has to camp illeagally in the woods, bathe every other week, and generally live off the land to be "Troo". ANY band has a right to make a living, whether it's Dark Empire, DT, or Anal Cunt. If a band's 'business model" is out of whack, the people will stop coming to shows, and buying cds & merch, or the band will fall apart because it can't FINANCIALLY continue. I'd prefer know that the artists are making a living from the music, and not having to hold down a day job to pay their rent/mortgages, health care, and other bills. In Ken's Utopia, I guess you don't need cash to live, and everbody is in some kind of commune, where everything is provided for. It's pretty simple, to make & perform music costs money. If you (a band) don't have SOME kind of business plan, you'll be toast in a very short time, if you want to continue at a "professional" level. Bottom line? No way in fookin' hell would I pay $300 for that!

So what you're saying is that there is somehow an acceptable threshold of how much a band can earn from their art? Who decides this? What is your personal cut off? If a band member makes 30 grand a year off of his band its ok, but if he starts making 40 grand, watch out, he's only in it for money and has "lost focus", even though its quite presumptuous for you to decide if an artist has "lost focus", especially based on the amount of t shirt designs they have for sale. I guess Roger Waters lost a shitload of focus when Pink Floyd made The Wall, what with the tie-in movie, extravagant concert performances, t shirts, fuck Ive seen stuffed "pink" dolls too. I used to think The Wall was a briliant artistic statement, thank you for showing me the light.

So when a band puts out bullshit like a live album and DVD after every major tour with the same damn setlist, aside from 1 or 2 new songs, thats respectable? Or should I say, somehow different than coming out with a new t shirt design or two?

Ouch, Matt's on a roll, good thing there isn't a score card for this debate....

Because they are outgoing people. There are plenty of artists who are very introverted and unsocial, but apparently this makes them ungrateful of their fans too. Ive seen you praise Pain of Salvation before, and they were the single most unsocial band at Progpower V, not a single member hung out with anyone, and actually called to complain to the hotel that the people partying were making too much noise. Horrible money grubbers that don't give a shit about their fans, right?

That was my fault, Matt, Danny Goldenblow sensed a disturbance in the force, and must have known I was there, and it got his cooch all up in a dander.....

I don't know if you know who Bumblefoot is, but he is one of the single greatest musical and artistic minds I've ever had the pleasure of spending time with. He is also one of the single most genuinely pleasant people I've ever met. He's someone that you would meet and it would actually give you hope for humanity to know that people like him exist. he also plays guitar in Guns n Roses, one of the biggest "corperate rock" bands out there. Someone like you would take one look at him on stage and think of him as a souless corperate zombie. I look at him on stage with GnR and I see: 1) someone who loves to perform for people, because it makes people happy 2) someone who is providing for his wife, paying his bills, and putting food on his plate, and 3) someone who is providing himself with the financial means to support his own solo creative endeavors.

Jokes on you, then.

All I can say is:
I heartily endorse the above paragraph 100%
(and I would add Mr. Eklundh to that rare group of rockers as well)

edit: actually, I did at one point pay over 600 dollars to see a band. I flew to Germany just to see my favorite band, Rage, because they never tour or play in the US. It was a regular show, no festival or anything. And for the record, my friend, unbeknownst to me, told their (now ex) drummer about it via email, and he thought that was so awesome he put all of us on the guest list and got in for free (and yes, got a chance to meet the band and get pics/autographs and the bar after the show). But to me, it was worth it to shell out that much money to see Rage, because thats how big of a fan I am. So maybe to some Dream Theater fans its worth it to shell out 300 bucks to see em up close and meet em.

Rock on dude! I was this || close to going to the Storan shoot for the FK DVD. Truck died, saved money gone.....

Back in 2000, a gaggle of Mike Keneally fans (including myself) set up Nonkerstock, which was basically just a day of music, food, drink, and fun, with Mike Keneally's band as the headline entertainment. It was financed 100% via the fanbase for the FANS. It was a free show (you didn't have to contribute to attend and partake in all that was offered) It truly was one of the highlights in my life thus far. I spent a lot of cash on contributing to the costs for the fest & flying my ass out there. Like you, I did it 100% for my love of MK's music. I also dug the open to all aspect of the fest. It was cool...

Mod's can you change the title of this thread to "Debate with Kenneth...may also contain DT related discussion "?

NO