The Official Good Television Thread

[Einherjar86]

Masculinity problem referring to what exactly?

Woody's character

No, I have no problem with the characters. Both Rust and Marty are misogynistic asshats, but that in and of itself doesn't ruin the show. Plenty of men are misogynists, especially cops; that's just real life.

The issue in season one mainly had to do with the fact that the women in season one didn't have perspectives of their own; all their situations were portrayed only through the perspectives of Rust and Marty. Now, there's a formal reason for this: the show is about Rust and Marty. This is why I personally don't have a problem with it. One could argue that the show addresses the limitations of masculine thinking when it comes to the experiences of women. One could also argue that, by failing to provide any substantial feminine perspective, the show doesn't do enough to address those limitations.

Every single significant female character is mostly reduced to their sexuality--Marty's wife, his mistress, and his daughter. That is, their most important functions in the first season have to do with sex. They don't contribute meaningfully to the show beyond that.

I think there are merits to both arguments, but I don't think the latter detracts from the show at all. It does, to some extent, make it less enjoyable for female audiences, I think.

This is why I think TD is such an excellent anthology show though; because they had the guts to ditch the southern gothic for s02 and go in a totally different direction with almost equal success (by my reckoning), telling this story of monolithic institutional corruption that is more grounded in reality but no less horrifying. It's the best example of neo-noir I've seen on television. My highest hope for s03 is that it ends up equally distinct from the previous seasons.

This is interesting, and another reason why I want to re-watch it.

This might be heresy but the second time I watched season 1 I kinda thought McConaughey was over-acting and that Woody's character was more interesting, challenging and better acted. His imperfections were more blatant which made it harder (and more rewarding once you get there) to sympathize with him, whereas Rust is this immediate appeal character with the edgy smarmy quips etc (if he were a real person there'd be "Rust PWNS so-and-so" Yutube compilations) that literally everybody loves, as viewers.

Something about a character with all their quirks and tragedes worn on their sleeve is just kinda... boring, or played out. Woody brought a much more realistic facade of #FamilyValues and #HyperMasculinity that I found more engaging on a personal level.

I actually agree that Harrelson is the better actor of the two, in TD and elsewhere. Cohle's character borders on the absurd and risks satire, but I thought Pizzolatto managed to recover him from that. He was just measured/moderate enough for me to buy his shtick.

 

[CiG]

The detective genre tends to fall into the trap of a masculine tunnel vision, especially because most detectives are men who are workaholic stereotypes meaning family alienation (especially wives) is a common element and the only other female interaction present is dealing with victims. It's the perfect setting for neglecting a feminine perspective or representing meaningful contributions to the plot from women.

It's a hard one to work out and I don't envy the writers who work with the genre. I think True Detective succeeded with women because Rust is kind of a sex appeal character. A lot of women I know loved the show and his character specifically, but drawing crowds through sex appeal alone is in and of itself not sturdy or meaningful.

 

[rms]

It does, to some extent, make it less enjoyable for female audiences, I think.

female audiences enjoy, support and thrive on garbage. impossible to make that crossover.

 

[Einherjar86]

The detective genre tends to fall into the trap of a masculine tunnel vision, especially because most detectives are men who are workaholic stereotypes meaning family alienation (especially wives) is a common element and the only other female interaction present is dealing with victims. It's the perfect setting for neglecting a feminine perspective or representing meaningful contributions to the plot from women.

It's a hard one to work out and I don't envy the writers who work with the genre. I think True Detective succeeded with women because Rust is kind of a sex appeal character. A lot of women I know loved the show and his character specifically, but drawing crowds through sex appeal alone is in and of itself not sturdy or meaningful.

Yes, it does fall into that trap, going back to Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett. It's just part of its formal organization. Season two tried to remedy this with McAdams's character, but it felt simultaneously like overkill and a misfire to me.

The women I know who've seen it liked it, but they were aware of its limitations. And many of them weren't sure why, the first time we see McAdam's character in season two, she had to be having sex...

For what it's worth, I still think season one is one of the best seasons of television ever. I can't express enough how well-written and put together it is. And it went places that most shows, even on premium channels, wouldn't go.

female audiences enjoy, support and thrive on garbage. impossible to make that crossover.

This comment reveals so much. Not anything I didn't already suspect, but you know...

 

[CiG]

She was my favourite character in season 2 but they definitely hammed her up in places and exploited her in her capacity as a representation token, which is a shame. I really need to do a refresher on season 2 because I don't remember that she's introduced with a sex scene, I've only watched it once I think.

 

[Einherjar86]

After that opening, I think she went on to be a great character--probably my favorite as well. But that opening scene just left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[CiG]

At times it felt like they were using her to demystify womanhood as it is often presented in masculine stories, where it wasn't enough to have her being and looking professional but rather they'd intentionally make her ugly (physically and personality-wise) and it does happen sometimes in some bizarre attempt to "humanize female characters" and I think the sex thing might be an example of that.

 

[Einherjar86]

At times it felt like they were using her to demystify womanhood as it is often presented in masculine stories, where it wasn't enough to have her being and looking professional but rather they'd intentionally make her ugly (physically and personality-wise) and it does happen sometimes in some bizarre attempt to "humanize female characters" and I think the sex thing might be an example of that.

I think this is pretty spot on, and basically how I felt about season two. But I should re-watch it at some point too, to approach from a fresh perspective.

 

[rms]

The women I know who've seen it liked it, but they were aware of its limitations. And many of them weren't sure why, the first time we see McAdam's character in season two, she had to be having sex...

"well aware of its limitations"

This comment reveals so much. Not anything I didn't already suspect, but you know...

can't deny it. and the idea a piece of media is ruined because character x and y aren't of specific sub classes is hilarious.

and feminists have incorrectly portrayed maggie from the get go, for their own personal adventure.

 

[Einherjar86]

can't deny it. and the idea a piece of media is ruined because character x and y aren't of specific sub classes is hilarious.

I can deny it. I do deny it. Wow, that was easy.

And I never said it ruins anything about the show.

 

[rms]

I can deny it. I do deny it. Wow, that was easy.

I did forget bravo picked up season 4 of true detective

And I never said it ruins anything about the show.

Not talking about it for you. You act as if not liking a show because of above reasons is valid. We know you feel this way because of the person speaking on it, but it's a ridiculous opinion.

How can it be so intelligent on matters of slow-burning grief and small-town bigotry and yet so dumb – really dumb – on the subject of women?.

Let's start with the title of the show, then: True Detective. This programme is saying that these people are real, honest-to-God po-lice. In 1995 in the US, approximately 9% of police officers were female. By 2012, when the latter portion of the show is set, 15% of police officers were female. A quick count-up on IMDB tells me that there are 27 police-officer characters in True Detective. Even at the lowest percentage, at least two should have been female.

Not a single police officer depicted in the show is female.

But what the show is implicitly – if unintentionally – saying, is that true detectives are men.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...r/31/true-detective-turnoff-for-women-viewers

 

[Einherjar86]

I did forget bravo picked up season 4 of true detective

I did forget that women only watch Bravo.

Not talking about it for you. You act as if not liking a show because of above reasons is valid. We know you feel this way because of the person speaking on it, but it's a ridiculous opinion.

Not liking something because it doesn't interest you is perfectly valid. I completely understand why women don't find True Detective interesting in any experiential or personal way. There's nothing invalid about that. It doesn't amount to a critique of the show, no matter how many outlier Guardian articles you find.

I suppose you also think Big Little Lies and Sharp Objects are "garbage."

 

[rms]

I did forget that women only watch Bravo.

at least it happened quickly this time. talking in generalities right to "not all viewers on Bravo are women!"

I completely understand why women don't find True Detective interesting in any experiential or personal way.

not having your gender/sex/orientation as the protagonist should not be a legitimate gripe against a piece of art/media/etc. if Sally wants to not like it, whatever. but writing articles about it and attempting to influence? hilariously bad.

think I saw one episode of Sharp and never heard of the other. but enjoyed The Fall before it went off the deep end, loved the original Killing before you attempt to find me not enjoying a good show because it has a woman lead or some stupid ass opinion.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Season 2 was pretty shitty all around. HUGE drop form S1. Vaughn and Farrell are are far from being good actors but man did the latter turn in a cringeworthy performance.

 

[Einherjar86]

at least it happened quickly this time. talking in generalities right to "not all viewers on Bravo are women!"

not having your gender/sex/orientation as the protagonist should not be a legitimate gripe against a piece of art/media/etc. if Sally wants to not like it, whatever. but writing articles about it and attempting to influence? hilariously bad.

think I saw one episode of Sharp and never heard of the other. but enjoyed The Fall before it went off the deep end, loved the original Killing before you attempt to find me not enjoying a good show because it has a woman lead or some stupid ass opinion.

All I ask is that you don't extend the opinion of one woman reviewer to those of all women, who according to you only like "garbage" television.

My point in listing those other shows--and sure, The Fall and The Killing fit in here too--is that these shows attract a large viewing base of women. Your crude comment that women audiences enjoy "garbage" is easily refutable bullshit. It's not a knock on a show to say that certain demographics won't find it appealing in any personal or experiential way. It's difficult to enjoy a show if it doesn't make you care, and I think there are women who find it difficult to care about Rust and Marty.

But that's not to say it isn't a good show or that women couldn't possibly find some way to enjoy it. I was only commenting on the demographic appeal of the hardboiled genre, which tends to elicit the attention of men more than women.

 

[Phylactery]

watch those movies i recommended you, ya dildo

Maybe if you called them films I'd be more inclined!

But nah, I haven't forgotten! It's on my never-ending to do list. I'm actually excited to get started, but I just never find the right time.

 

[CiG]

Season 2 was pretty shitty all around. HUGE drop form S1. Vaughn and Farrell are are far from being good actors but man did the latter turn in a cringeworthy performance.

Farrell... man I just find him to be mostly an insufferable actor. Miami Vice was amazing but other than that I don't know that I've ever liked him in anything else.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

yea, hes pretty fucking bad. Tbh so is Vaughn. It just amazes me how they went from such a mindblowingly good S1(in every department, especially the acting) to the crap they gave us with S2.

 

[CiG]

I don't mind Vaughn (again, everybody should see Brawl in Cell Block 99). Most of his shitty acting is because he does mostly dumb comedies, Farrell is actually supposed to be a good actor.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Spare me the sententious talk. It's picayune and unctuous