The ultimate IR, NEBULA, REAL DEAL test

[~BURNY~]

Well A just sounded best to me...
What can I say? Maybe less polished in a way but not worse...
Stop making excuses guys.

All piss taking aside, since I'm using real amps and cabinets 95% of the time, I'd like to think I simply made the right choice based on my experience.
I'd be lying if I said I was totally confident though.

I'm not even an anti-impulses fundamentalist. I just enjoy micing cab and cherish the idea of creating something unique each time but I don't hate impulses and such.

 

[Morgan C]

Well, damn. I guess I'll be enjoying my own foot tonight. Dem proteinz.

However, I'm actually happy with the results. I use impulses for a lot of my work, and if Nebula is even better, then awesome. However, this may have been one of those situations where impulses just fit better (like some songs may fit better with really mechanical drums). OR they may just not take processing as well. I know in the past I've had better results with real mic'd guitars, like Ermz.

I might whip up a quick mix to see which one fits better, but I don't have a bass on me (or know how to play bass) or have a realistic bass soft synth. I'll be interested to see which turns out better after processing and in the mix, whether my past experience will repeat itself (real amp winning out) or not, or maybe Nebula will go above and beyond.

 

[Melb_shredder]

Wow... this thread kind of got out of hand a little haha! I'm still going to chip in my .02 even though it's pretty much over.. A semi outside perspective I guess??? When we recorded our album with Ermz... we used a real cab and gota decent tone, but was also full of junk due to the room we used.. So the tone didn't come out that well..

Ermz suggested reamping again but into impulses.. so I took my amp over and we tried it... 3 or so hours in I think? Got a tone you would dare called epic... such squish and chunk, sounding really good.. so we reamped a track...

Sat the new awesome sounding impulses in... did a little EQ... and despite I guess a better overall tone.. it sounded dead... just flat. As soon as we popped in the sub-par REAL tracks again... it just came back to life. The tone was still struggling, but the real guitars seems to make the mix feel less flat and, static.. i think that's really the ONLY word that will encompass it.

In this test, WHICH is the real amp? Well it's a little harder to hear the characteristics overall, but obviously most guys here have tried to teach themselves to hear the EXPECTED differences in the solo'd tones... it's about as useful as comparing a well set up axe fx and a not so well set up recto and asking which is better...

Obviously that's not exactly accurate, however, unless it's in a mix, you're still comparing a tone to a tone. As ermz said, it's cumulative. And I still, from hearing it myself, can definitely see how the impulse tone will actually detriment a mix overall....

 

[Fama]

Well, I'm happy I got the impulse right...

 

[jipchen]

Ok guys, here are the results for both distorted and clean.

A - Real Amp
B - Nebula
C - IR

Hmm...

To me, A sounds best for distorted guitars but that might just be because it's a tad louder.

Hellz yeah, I liked the real thing best Funny how I picked A without really hearing much of a difference. Perhaps it was more the feeling of the cab

I wanted to vote A for amp but didn't really dare to do so because of the already mentioned tiny tiny difference. And I honestly couldn't (and still can't) hear a damn difference between B and C.

Thanks for the test anyway.

 

[Morgan C]

Hope this is ok with you Unicorn (don't know your real name, sorry). I did a quick mix around the guitars so that people can compare 'in the mix'. It's not a good mix by any means but its good enough to compare.

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/equipment/690042-impulse-vs-cab-mix.html

 

[PaoloJM]

The key take away for me here is that if you guys are struggling to perceive a difference then listeners certainly will not be able to perceive any, and therefore IRs are perfectly acceptable for recording.
It's suggesting that the desicsion on which to use should be based on what the guitarist is most comfortable with, and therefore will provide the best performance, and not anything to with tone.
I did kind of think that, but this helps confirm it.

 

[Fama]

The key take away for me here is that if you guys are struggling to perceive a difference then listeners certainly will not be able to perceive any, and therefore IRs are perfectly acceptable for recording.
It's suggesting that the desicsion on which to use should be based on what the guitarist is most comfortable with, and therefore will provide the best performance, and not anything to with tone.
I did kind of think that, but this helps confirm it.

I think the argument mostly was (right from the beginning) that miced tones work better in a mix. So this doesn't really prove anything.

On the other hand, the average listener probably doesn't perceive too much difference in guitar tones anyway, so yeah.

 

[Ermz]

As far as the average listener cares we could all be using PODFarm from now until the end of time.

 

[Matt-Steele]

The key take away for me here is that if you guys are struggling to perceive a difference then listeners certainly will not be able to perceive any, and therefore IRs are perfectly acceptable for recording.

+1

This test, and many people's reactions to it have proved everything it needed to for me.

Thanks Unicorn.

 

[PaoloJM]

I think the argument mostly was (right from the beginning) that miced tones work better in a mix. So this doesn't really prove anything.

On the other hand, the average listener probably doesn't perceive too much difference in guitar tones anyway, so yeah.

If there is little or no perceivable difference in the unprocessed tones on their own, do you still think there will be a difference in the mix?
Would you not agree that either tone could be equally be made work as effectively by you, the mixer, in a mix?

 

[AeternusEternus]

in all of my experiences with real/nebula/ir, here's what i took away:

-a real amp's recorded speaker is going to be moving. it only moves on one axis as speakers do. the mic is stationary. in the end, you've recorded a moving, thumping thing, and so you'll have a moving, thumping thing driving your post processors.
-nebula sounds exactly the same as a real cab, except for a few small things. i notice that the low end is a little off in my cab programs, and i notice that in A/B testing a real cab and the Nebula program of that exact same setup, Nebula doesn't reproduce static buzz. plug your guitar in and don't play; real cab's gonna hiss and possibly feed back. nothing of the sort with nebula.
-impulses have weaknesses if you're comparing their long lists of features side-by-side on amazon, because the standards have been set by micing speakers. but, i like to look at these things as strengths. here's a completely static speaker with one speed: full speed. when i play my real amps, i keep the volume at like.. 0.1. i DO NOT LIKE the sound of an amp on ten because it fucking hurts to hear that. i see strength in the fact that guitar can be stripped of its shitty amplifier dynamics when i want to do that. that's not the way i want to listen to all types of music for the rest of my life. i can control all i need to control with my hands and cubase's volume slider, you know?

in the end, one's really easy to use.

 

[Ermz]

@Paolo: No, that's the thing. If you read Melb_shredder's post above, you'll note he was present one of the dozens of times I've tried this.

We got a tone with his Mark IV into Pres8 that sounded massive. I was loving it.

Got it into the mix, and a single EQ plug-in later the whole thing fell apart into a 2 dimensional mess. At that point we were really hoping for it to work too, as it was our last chance (tight deadlines). Self-delusion and 'elitism' wouldn't have served us in that case. The reality was that our subpar mic'ed tone was still a better candidate for the album than the great-sounding raw impulse tone.

Ultimately I guess it shouldn't bother me if people choose not to believe this. Doesn't hurt me - I'm just trying to save some of you the same heartache I've experienced over the years with impulses. If they work for you, then more power to you.

 

[Matt-Steele]

@Paolo: No, that's the thing. If you read Melb_shredder's post above, you'll note he was present one of the dozens of times I've tried this.

We got a tone with his Mark IV into Pres8 that sounded massive. I was loving it.

Got it into the mix, and a single EQ plug-in later the whole thing fell apart into a 2 dimensional mess. At that point we were really hoping for it to work too, as it was our last chance (tight deadlines). Self-delusion and 'elitism' wouldn't have served us in that case. The reality was that our subpar mic'ed tone was still a better candidate for the album than the great-sounding raw impulse tone.

Ultimately I guess it shouldn't bother me if people choose not to believe this. Doesn't hurt me - I'm just trying to save some of you the same heartache I've experienced over the years with impulses. If they work for you, then more power to you.

Ermz,

Do you have to EQ after the guitar, or possibly attempt to use a different impulse that sounds more like the tone you're after with the EQ applied? In essence using no EQ after the impulse, letting the impulse do all the work for you? That's what I do. I never EQ after the impulse, because I have never enjoyed the sound I get when doing so. This might be the reason I prefer the Redwirez IR's since the low end is minimal compared to IR's like Ryan's impulses, which probably need a lot of low end controlled/removed.

Also, when you say the impulse guitar file goes to shit when applying filtering, does that include everything that goes into your master bus or just the EQ after the guitar chain?

 

[JeffTD]

Saying you shouldn't EQ after the impulse is like saying you should EQ after micing up a cabinet - unless you've found the one magic impulse that's had hardware eq performed in the perfect manner for your mix, it's going to need some processing to fit well.

I'm pretty surprised at the results, but checking out Morgan's bit as I think it'll prove my point about it being in a mix.

 

[Matt-Steele]

unless you've found the one magic impulse

That's precisely what I do. And I've amassed a huge library of impulses looking for the holy grail for my needs.

 

[Ermz]

I've never run into a guitar sound that didn't need at least a little processing to sit well in a mix, whether tube, impulse, all digital or otherwise. In a perfect world, yes of course that would be amazing, but even the best amps and IR chains we've tried have needed a push.

 

[RemoWilliams]

As far as the average listener cares we could all be using PODFarm from now until the end of time.

There's a ton of truth in this.

 

[PaoloJM]

@Paolo: No, that's the thing. If you read Melb_shredder's post above, you'll note he was present one of the dozens of times I've tried this.

We got a tone with his Mark IV into Pres8 that sounded massive. I was loving it.

Got it into the mix, and a single EQ plug-in later the whole thing fell apart into a 2 dimensional mess. At that point we were really hoping for it to work too, as it was our last chance (tight deadlines). Self-delusion and 'elitism' wouldn't have served us in that case. The reality was that our subpar mic'ed tone was still a better candidate for the album than the great-sounding raw impulse tone.

Ultimately I guess it shouldn't bother me if people choose not to believe this. Doesn't hurt me - I'm just trying to save some of you the same heartache I've experienced over the years with impulses. If they work for you, then more power to you.

Fair comment, I didn't see those experiments and I'm no expert by a long shot. I'd like to have a look if you've got a link handy. What you've both describes does seem perfectly plausible.
I was usinig questions instead of statements as I was geniunely trying to tease this out.

 

[Matt-Steele]

I've never run into a guitar sound that didn't need at least a little processing to sit well in a mix, whether tube, impulse, all digital or otherwise. In a perfect world, yes of course that would be amazing, but even the best amps and IR chains we've tried have needed a push.

I have a HUGE assortment of impulses for this very task. Of course I might want to do some trimming here and there but I live with what the impulse gives me since I really hate the sound of filtering it.