wtf...Extol is christian death metal?!

[soundave]

Always a pleasure to "listen" to your rants, Black Session!

 

[annt]

I see your point, but yeah. I guess it depends on the person, not their religion. Looser Christians who believe in God but not the bible and their rules, just that there is something that made them that they respect could probably listen to it or something, but stricter Christians enjoying extremely satanic music would kind of make them sound like hypocrites!

I dunno, I can see both sides of the arguement I guess

First of all: Great thread, glad to see some actual discussion on this forum!

To vampyrouss: I don't think someone who doesn't believe in the bible can be called a Christian. Otherwise your posts have been very nice and rational, and I agree with most of the things you've said.

Black Session: I used to be quite anti-Christian myself when I was younger, but I don't see the point in it anymore. I mean, Christianity is hardly a threat to anyone nowadays. And I think there is a contradiction in you saying that you don't want to listen songs about fictional characters (Christian metal) but you listen to songs about fictional characters (Satanic metal). Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the picture I got from your posts. It also seems that you are quite drawn to the dark, even though you claim to be neutral... Oh well, I don't want to start a fight, just wondering about some things, I'm not sure if I got my thoughts through properly

And furthermore, I don't think it's good to say that it's a FACT that God and the Devil (or something like them) don't exist, because there is no proof about it, as there is no proof of them existing (at least anything which would convince everyone).

And on the original subject: Isn't "Do what thou wilt" one of the main anti-Christian principles? So I say, let anyone who makes the kind of music they like to listen to themselves write whatever lyrics they want. It doesn't bother me.

 

[vampyrouss]

First of all: Great thread, glad to see some actual discussion on this forum!

To vampyrouss: I don't think someone who doesn't believe in the bible can be called a Christian. Otherwise your posts have been very nice and rational, and I agree with most of the things you've said.

Black Session: I used to be quite anti-Christian myself when I was younger, but I don't see the point in it anymore. I mean, Christianity is hardly a threat to anyone nowadays. And I think there is a contradiction in you saying that you don't want to listen songs about fictional characters (Christian metal) but you listen to songs about fictional characters (Satanic metal). Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the picture I got from your posts. It also seems that you are quite drawn to the dark, even though you claim to be neutral... Oh well, I don't want to start a fight, just wondering about some things, I'm not sure if I got my thoughts through properly

And furthermore, I don't think it's good to say that it's a FACT that God and the Devil (or something like them) don't exist, because there is no proof about it, as there is no proof of them existing (at least anything which would convince everyone).

And on the original subject: Isn't "Do what thou wilt" one of the main anti-Christian principles? So I say, let anyone who makes the kind of music they like to listen to themselves write whatever lyrics they want. It doesn't bother me.

And yeah, I guess what I said was kinda weird. I think that there is something out there, either scientific, or spiritual that made us (obviously) and whatever that is is what we call a God, and I believe in that, whatever that is, fluke, chemical reaction, deity, whatever, but I don't believe the stories written in religious texts word for word! They are cool stories and most of them have good points, but so does any fairytale, you know?
So what I meant was if anyone else in the world thinks like me it would be possible to believe in the thing people call a God and still listen to Christian/Satanic/whatever music. Bet that still doesn't make sense!
But yeah, its hard to not start arguements with this subject, but I think everyone here knows no one is attacking anyone or anything personal!

 

[annt]

And yeah, I guess what I said was kinda weird. I think that there is something out there, either scientific, or spiritual that made us (obviously) and whatever that is is what we call a God, and I believe in that, whatever that is, fluke, chemical reaction, deity, whatever, but I don't believe the stories written in religious texts word for word! They are cool stories and most of them have good points, but so does any fairytale, you know?
So what I meant was if anyone else in the world thinks like me it would be possible to believe in the thing people call a God and still listen to Christian/Satanic/whatever music. Bet that still doesn't make sense!
But yeah, its hard to not start arguements with this subject, but I think everyone here knows no one is attacking anyone or anything personal!

I must say that I share the same view on God. And don't take this wrong, but I like you.

 

[vampyrouss]

hahaha, I like you too man, lets get intimate!!
But nah, seriously, thanks, I thought everyone would hate me on this forum!
But there are some really nice people on here, yourself obviously included!
Thanks again!

 

[EveOfDarkness]

so is what you guys think about God called agnosticism? I always kinda get confused about that. From what I've understood, agnosticism is about believing there is some sort of higher power or something out there but not necessarily being 'God', but 'something'. Thats what I understood from your posts. Just curious.

Yaeh I heard David, the drummer from Extol is doing a project with some guys from Spiral Architect or something. I heard the song a while ago, sounds pretty interesting. He's definitely a good one to be doing that. Great drummer, one of my faves hands down.

I like reading about all of your views to religion, its always good be educated in peoples views that are opposite to yours when they are said in an intelligent manner. I've been thinking a lot about this kind of thing this week, and you know the truth is that a lot of people get the wrong idea of Christianity. What most of you people think you know of Christianity, is not true Christianity at all. I'm talking about the people that go to church and listen to the preacher then go home and life goes back to normal through out the week until next sunday or w/e. Thats nothing, thats pretentiousness. True christianity is those of us who read our Bible, and question our faith to find the answers apart from what some humans tell us. Its a lifelong journey. I think its a very beautiful thing for us, because we learn so much and theres always new revelations, going on in our spiritual lives. Theres nothing 'brainwashing' about it. I just feel bad that the non believers see us in such a light as being sheeps when that has nothing to do with true Christianity.

 

[vampyrouss]

so is what you guys think about God called agnosticism? I always kinda get confused about that. From what I've understood, agnosticism is about believing there is some sort of higher power or something out there but not necessarily being 'God', but 'something'. Thats what I understood from your posts. Just curious.

I wouldn't say I believe there is a higher power, it would just seem that is logical, like there is or was something, even if that something is nothing now and was just a blip of cosmic dust or something. Maybe the world only came into existance when you were born. Can anyone remember anything before they were born? And when you die maybe the world will just end, gone, blip. I just wouldn't ever feel secure enough to say something is definatly right, but I don't blame people who do.

Religion is cool in general, whichever one, because it teaches us good stuff (as well as some bad too in some cases) but another reason I would never want to be of a certain religion is that we have enough seperation in this world, like in our music. Is it DM, Christian Death Metal, BM, Prog DM.... its just cool music, or awful music, whatever suits the band. Being a Christian or a Satanist doesn't really matter to me, being a good person is what matters to me, preferably a good person who creates (especially creates good music!)

I'll shut up now!

 

[annt]

so is what you guys think about God called agnosticism? I always kinda get confused about that. From what I've understood, agnosticism is about believing there is some sort of higher power or something out there but not necessarily being 'God', but 'something'. Thats what I understood from your posts. Just curious.

I think an agnostic believes that no one is able to know whether God exists or not, whereas an atheist wholly denies the possibility of there being a higher power of any sort. I used to be an atheist when I was a teenager, because then I thought that believing in God is ridiculous. I think it was because of the same reason that Black Session is an atheist: despise towards Christianity.
Now that I'm a bit older, and experienced and thought about things a bit more, I have come to the conclusion (by reasoning) that there is a god. Trying to explain this to anyone is near impossible, especially over the Internet, and especially when someone is a devoted atheist.

I can wholeheartedly say that believing in a god doesn't somehow prevent people to see the beauty in the world, actually I find it quite hard nowadays to imagine myself thinking: "Wow, look at the beauty of this complex, yet working structure and these lovely colours and everything! And to think that all this, and our ability to marvel it just happens to exist by chance and for no reason!"

On another issue brought up in this thread: Samoth and Faust from Emperor have been doing time for church-burnings and murder.

I hade some more things in mind but they have escaped me for now.

 

[Hügelgräber]

oh well I let myself go on this one ... and I apologize to the moderator for this.

Nothing to apologize, I think.

so is what you guys think about God called agnosticism? I always kinda get confused about that. From what I've understood, agnosticism is about believing there is some sort of higher power or something out there but not necessarily being 'God', but 'something'. Thats what I understood from your posts. Just curious.

Being an agnostic means, that you can believe in god or something similar, but you do not believe that anyone can realize or sense this god, or the godly in this world, because the human being is just not able to do this. Gnosis means cognition (hope this is the right english word). So an a-gnostic denies it.
Some of them think, that there is a god, that we can not recognize, but we could, if he would show himself to us.

...This is not my opinion. On my long journey through many religous texts, books and discussions in my "esoterical-youth-time", I realized (for myself )some years ago, that there is nothing metaphysical in this world. It is, from our human sight, beautiful, ugly, cruel, joyful, whatever, without a "higher being" or "big-pizza-man" that created it, or makes things happen that we can not understand with our little brains.

To the topic : I heard Extol at the Opeth's europe-tour and some mp3s. Don't like their music. They are christians ? Ok, does'nt change my opinion either way.

EDIT: damn, annt was faster with the definition.

 

[annt]

damn, annt was faster with the definition.

PWND

 

[vampyrouss]

To the topic : I heard Extol at the Opeth's europe-tour and some mp3s. Don't like their music. They are christians ? Ok, does'nt change my opinion either way.

I'm almost scared to listen to them now, because I may actually say something relevant in this thread if I actually hear them!
Thanks for all 3 versions of what agnostic means, I pretty much thought the same but never really looked into it, but from those descriptions and my own guesses I can get the idea I think... But I still don't know if I am one or not

 

[EveOfDarkness]

ok guys thanx for the defining 'agnosticism', it made it a little bit more clear to me.

Vympyrouss, you should def check out Extol. I would say listen to a few songs from all four of their albums, because they change DRASTICALLY at times.

 

[neuroticandroid]

Lucifer had free will. That is obvious. A definitive trait of all God's sentient creations is free will. Free will is there to give man (and angels) a choice whether to follow God or not, so nobody can ever say "God forced me to serve Him." God wants friends, the last thing God ever wanted was a puppet. A third of the angels followed Lucifer, so it seems that making poor decisions is not above a creature like that.

Lucifer was an archangel of great pride, basically thought he was hot shit, and tried to usurp God, according to orthodox tradition. God struck him down for his insolence, and from then on Lucifer sought to build his own kingdom by counterfeiting everything God did. God created man for fellowship, Lucifer tried to steal us. God instituted the plan of salvation with Jesus and His virgin birth, Lucifer was behind the sun-god Nimrod's fatherhood of Tammuz. God gives His followers power of the Holy Spirit, Lucifer gives his followers black magic. God gives us Opeth, Lucifer gives us Nickelback. You get the idea.

my god, this is a serious subject, i know, but that line about lucifer giving us nickelback is fucking hilarious! but anyway, being a christian, i have to say some of the other members' details are a bit off. actually, the serpent from adam and eve wasn't identified as satan until revelations. satan comes from the hebrew word for adversary, so he's god's and man's adversary. read job again if you wish, i'm not going to force my beliefs on anyone here. and it was mainly the catholic church who was guilty of synchretism, with easter, christmas , and other pagan holidays and customs. their thinking was that if they took samhain's name off halloween, for example, and dedicated it instead to martyrs for christ they would then consider those pagans honoring christ even if they weren't aware of it. completely erroneous thinking for sure, but as they say "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." personally, i tend not to believe what any man tells me about the nature of god, i believe the bible does that for me, and i'm fine with my choice as the non-christians in here are fine with theirs.

 

[neuroticandroid]

oh and just to nitpick gnosis is not greek for cognition, it is greek for knowing or knowledge. cognition comes from the greek for thought or thinking. there's a slight difference.

 

[neuroticandroid]

oh and just to nitpick gnosis is not greek for cognition, it is greek for knowing or knowledge. cognition comes from the greek for thought or thinking. there's a slight difference.

 

[neuroticandroid]

oh and just to nitpick gnosis is not greek for cognition, it is greek for knowing or knowledge. cognition comes from the greek for thought or thinking. there's a slight difference.

 

[neuroticandroid]

oops, i had no intention of posting that three times. damn web browser!

 

[Julian Zembrowski]

Oh yeah White Metal plus Powermetal.. greatest invention since autisim.
WHITE POWER!

Gwahaha...

 

[Black Session]

@annt: well I'm only giving my opinion on christianity in this thread because that's the topic now .. but my reason for being atheist go beyond that. I'm definitely not one of those who thinks it's cool being against christianity, so following satan -kids ... i'm not even a kid anymore
I have spent several years thinking about the subject, and my conclusions were that there is nothing, that everything supernatural is fiction. however, I'm the last one to say that knowledge can be 100% certain .. so in a way I am acknowledging that there might be a god, but to be honest, I couldn't live with that idea.
also, I study archaeology .. and so I have learned a lot about how societies and ideologies and religions originated. it is very hard for me to accept that something we can prove has been invented at some point in history (often using elements from other religions and stuff), is something that has always existed ... I consider religion an intriguing part of human's ability to create things and ideas.
I also try to escape as much as possible from any sort of thinking pattern that has been educated as part of the culture I grew up in (wich of course is not entirely possible). and religion for me is one aspect of that culturally determined aspects ... by escaping from it, it becomes possible to study humanity in a broader way, and delivering so much more complexity and beauty, a way to see the bigger picture (by wich I mean why do people live like they live today and in the past and in the future).

I thus consider myself purely atheist, not agnostic. I sometimes state that if there would be a god, I would be very dissapointed when I die, as life and the universe would suddenly become boring and simple ...

also: another question .. what is the difference between believing in fairy tales and believing in god? ... when I would declare that fairies visited me last night, I would be declared insane and probably sent to a psychiatrist, but when I would say that God visited me last night, then I would get people listen to what I say, and instantly believing me. and yet, both things come from ancient written texts, and are impossible to prove they exist or not.

 

[Black Session]

also @EveofDarkness: I agree totally with different sorts of christians btw ... here in Europe most christians are that sort of hypocrites that go to church once in a week, but otherwise couldn't care less about leading "a good life" ... I thus have much more respect for someone like you of course

@vampyrouss: I think you are an agnostic from what I've read ...

@Hügelgräber: I share your opinion! finally someone! you said exactly what I am saying .. thanks and did anyone notice: he is European .. but of course it is well known that the USA is far more religious than Europe (wich is on some levels becoming problematic, but we are not allowed to discuss politics right? )