Your thoughts on vocals

dorian gray

Returning videotapes
Apr 8, 2004
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i simply cannot figure out how mike sings the way he does (death metal voice, not clean vox). however, i do once remember reading where he said he was worried about singing for the damnation album because it is all clean and clean vocals have to be sung louder and it hurts his voice. so, with that in mind, i have these questions:
- are death vox sung at a lower register and then severely amped?
- if not, doesnt it hurt?
- what kind of effects (if any) does mike use on his vocals?
any thoughts would be appreciated. im a pretty good clean vocalist but i cannot figure out how to sing death vocals without hurting myself.
have a good one.....
 
x3x opeth x2x: do you do it at full volume? i cannot get anyone to tell me anything. its like a big secret. i asked my brother who is in a death metal band and he just kinda brushed me off, "uhhh....i dunno."
 
Yea I have a friend in a dm band too, and he really just growls right into the mic... im thinking it's just turned up. No reason why u can't amp it if your voice isn't so strong.
 
i go full blast but its not like talking its just using my throat only so it hurts after a while. plus i run out of air really fast i can only scream out like 4 words before i gotta take another breath
 
Wow... u used to be about that bad... then I got alot better, but now I can't growl anymore, as I have been doing way too much clean vocals. Ah well... time to start re-learning my technique....
 
going full blast...im wondering about the physical damage that causes. i can think of a few singers who have lost some ability by singing like that or singing really high and sustained notes (think james labrie). i think mike has gotten progressively better with his vocals so im really thinking his vocals (and others like him) are really low but sung directly into the mic. yet, on the DVD, he appears to be singing full blast (on the docu part)......hmmm.
 
It shouldn't really need to be louder than normal conversation noise level, like if you're clearly talking to someone in the same room. I guess some do it differently, but that is the level that works best for me. You just have to experiment, and record yourself, and when you get a good saturated growl out, learn to control it and endure it with practice.
 
When I do death vocals my voice goes all husky and deep, and it actually seems to help my clean vocals (but only singing low, my high range singing is virtually wiped out completely). Later, in normal conversation, I crack highs and I tend to cough up some flem. However, it doesn't really hurt at all, just makes my throat a bit raw (not in a sore way) and husky, and the more I growl, the lower and stronger my growl gets as my voice loosens up, but there is no doubt in my mind that there is some damage being done, because it isn't natural for my voice to drop so heavily. It makes confident, higher ranged clean singing impossible.

If you listen carefully to Mikael's voice, his clean vocal range doesn't go very high, and his voice often sounds a bit raw and husky, which I think is the effect of prolonged growling. Luckily for Mikael, his growling doesn't make his voice die like some growlers (how about that Anders Friden?), but rather accentuates his low range. I don't think you would ever see him going for power vox, because his growl-weathered voice would be incapable of going that high, and he probably doesn't have a very high singing range (he is great in the lower ranges though and it makes his voice sound very natural and full of character). Y'know, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has had a few moments of his voice cracking when trying to sing high (like I have had after extended growling).

I think that if you are growling with decent technique it is still pretty impossible to avoid a levelling-out of your voice, shown usually by a lowering of range and increased deepness across the board. Also, after extended low vocal sessions, my high-pitched black vox are seriously impaired. My clean voice sounds awesome low but cracks and fucks-out when attempting high singing (which I can do pretty damn well, with a fresh, un-growlerized voice).

That's my take on it.
 
There's an art to growling. You've got to avoid putting any strain on your actual throat, and push the air up with your gut. It's best to practice gorowling vowels, I remember someone telling me. Aaaaayeeeeee, Eeeeeeee, Eyeeeeeeee, Ouuuuuuuuuuu, Youuuuuuuu. Hold them for as long as you can, and experiment within a single growl with strength. Dont try to growl loud, as that can damage your throat. You've got to get the right tone before you aim for volume, but volume isnt important since, if you want to be heard, you should be using a mic anyway.

Let Mr Niel give a description... he's a better growler than me.
 
Yeah, I'm a goodish growler but Mr. Niel is monsteriffic! I think that mine aren't as chunky solely because my lungs aren't big enough and my throat isn't either to handle that sort of super-rumbling. :(
 
There's something to that whole from-the-stomach thing. I can only growl when I burp. And it doesn't hurt at all. Feels kinda good actually. Too bad I can only get out like half a line.

***drinks Dr. Pepper...opens mouth...feels burp arriving from stomach..."we enter winter onc..." closes mouth because burp is over***
 
dorian gray said:
going full blast...im wondering about the physical damage that causes

Look at Dani Filth and the guy from Devil Driver. The guy from Devil Driver opens his throat very wide, uses all his air, and pretty much rips his vocal chords. Dani conditioned himself to the point to where he can get the same effect as the douche from DD and so much more because it just takes conditioning and know-how.

When I started growling, I used my throat. That hurt and I could barely talk afterwards. Now I learned to use the back of my mouth, my throat, and stomach. I can say that I'm a decent growler. I'm not much of a singer and really want to learn how to sing. I can match some things like Agalloch, Opeth on Orchid and Morningrise, and some Emperor.

So basically, death and black vocals take conditioning. Don't go full blast at first but do it to somewhat of the same effect and use throat, back of mouth, and your stomach.
 
Well I've replied to like three of these threads already so last time I saved my reply so I could copy/paste it this time around. Here it is-

"EVERYONE can growl. You aren't born with it, and it's not really hard to learn. It takes practice to strenghten your chords a bit, and increase your sustain, but you should be able to find a growl you like within two hours if you are able to grasp what I'm about to say.

The key is to feel the gurgle in your throat, as this is what makes the sound. The proper term, is "vocal fry." Yknow that rasp you hear in metallica style singing?(think sandman) THAT'S vocal fry.

Start by talking like you've just gotten up in that morning, with a grog in your throat. Don't push much air out. Just groan, or say "oh I don't wanna get up." or something. Then use that to sing a bit. Don't push the air while your singing. The force of the air creates a clean tone, so by lightening this you make a pleasant rasp. You should really be able to get a feel for hard rock singing in a few minutes, I'm not saying you'll be in tune- but the rasp should now be there. If you do plan on singing this way, be sure to practice clean as well since many singers can't sing a clean tone if they sing this way too often. The growl won't affect that though.

Alright, here we go- take that rasp and drop down a few octaves in your voice. This should REALLY give you a feel for the growl. From here, you should be able to feel it in your throat, and learn how to control it. If at first you can't do it automatically just refer back to "oh I don't wanna get up" with very little air, and drop right back into that growl. Practice changing tones, and experimenting with octaves. Find what's comfortable for you and make use of it. It's been my experience that people tend to be comfortable with some ranges and uncomfortable with others. I know my black metal scream is pretty crazy sounding, and it's consistent in that range. My younger brother, who I taught to scream, has a low brutal death growl and his voice is higher then mine in real life- so go figure. The point is that once you feel that gurgle you should be able to experiment and feel whats comfortable. Make sure to try switching to a high(black metal sounding) octave while maintaining the rasp at least once to see if you like it. Practice when you can and soon you will be able to go longer without dryness in the throat. You should IMMEDIATELY notice that you will no longer be sore back there like it can get if you just scream as loud as you can. As long as you don't push too much air(to the point where the tone almost becomes clean) it's unlikely that you'll damage your vocal chords. In fact, it should be no problem to switch from a growl to clean singing. Practice makes perfect though, so if it's possible- try recording yourself as well, and adjusting it to the way you would like it to sound.

Hope this helps, tell me if you have any success(you should be able to get a good start to this within a couple hours). Cheers!"

On the subject of weathered vocal chords- it IS possible to sustain damage if you push air too hard and make yourself sore to the point where its hard to talk. Really, doing this makes for a WEAKER growl. And doing it every show on tour could surely cause damage. However, controlled vocal fry is completely safe and I'm pretty sure Mike is just comfortable in a low tone- he hasn't damaged his high. Most people are comfortable in a particular octave- and that octave is their most natural sounding singing. I've found that even if I overdo it in a high scream(never happens in low or mid) I get a bit sore but I can still sing normally.

As for sustain- I've practiced quite a bit to get where I am and that's only a ten second sustain. People who tell you to put NO stress on the throat aren't considering that this will pretty much drain your lungs. Your chords have to catch the air to sustain the growl. Mr. Niel gave me the best advice I've ever gotten on this- and that's to do it quiet. With a good mic, and some compression it can actually be picked up quite audibly. Just keep in mind it can't sound like a whisper, so you need to practice attaining the gurgle and still catching as much air as with a whisper. I'm slowly getting it myself and have upped my sustain to around 20 seconds now- but it still needs work. Anyway, that's all I have to say on it.
 
Wow, awesome, thanks for that reply crimsonchin, it is very informative.

EDIT: Am I right about the volume of the growl??? Shouldn't be like a scream, more like talking noise level??? How loud does it come out to be compared to regular singing??
 
Leper_/-\ffinity said:
Wow, awesome, thanks for that reply crimsonchin, it is very informative.

EDIT: Am I right about the volume of the growl??? Shouldn't be like a scream, more like talking noise level??? How loud does it come out to be compared to regular singing??

Well, my normal growls are quite loud, but the sustained growl I was talking about is about talking level for me...depending on the level you talk I guess. I get the feeling a good many of Mike's screams are like that.
 
my dm vocals sound more along the lines of at the gates and dont hurt at all. infact i can almost do it with barley any effort. if i were to do low growls its basically at a normal volume and well the mic does most of the work. my deep growls do kinda hurt cuz i havnt gotten the hang of it yet and well my band sticks to the high pitch dm growls so i dont really practice the opeth type growls too much. yea im drunk goodbye
 
thecrimsonchin said:
Well, my normal growls are quite loud, but the sustained growl I was talking about is about talking level for me...depending on the level you talk I guess. I get the feeling a good many of Mike's screams are like that.

Could you be arsed to record a a growl sample of yours??? Maybe to an Opeth guitar pro track or something, just to hear what you're talking about a little?? I recorded myself growling some of The Night and The SIlent Water a while ago, but it was in a little deeper style than the original, but I thought it sounded alright, and I think Ive gotten much better since then as well.