Black Metal.

[unknown]

The fact that Chaining the Katechon is one song complicates the issue. Don't get me wrong, it's by far one of DsO's best songs, but I don't think I can't say it's their best album

and in regards to the post metal issue, if it weren't for bands like DHG, Arcturus, Ved Buens Ende, Fleurety, etc. . . the bands experimenting with the black metal sound, going beyond black metal and integrating other elements, the bands we call "post metal" these days might have a harder sell. Post Black Metal is a very large branching term, imo. It encompassed bands such as DHG and Arcturus (which sound nothing alike) and Wolves in the Throne Room and Altar of Plagues. Farsot often gets lumped in with "Post Black Metal" and there are no post-rock elements in their music at all

 

[Einherjar86]

The problem with "post black metal" is that, if we recognize it as a chronological term then it can refer to any black metal (and, in fact, any metal) released after second wave Norwegian. It's easier if used as a term that describes a certain aesthetic quality. Arcturus and Solefald don't need the label "post black metal" applied to them. It's too confusing.

 

[unknown]

bands experimenting with the black metal sound, going beyond black metal and integrating other elements...

 

[Einherjar86]

Simply experimenting with a sound doesn't qualify it as a universal genre distinction, in my opinion. If something is "experimental," then that's what modifier should be attributed to it. Post black metal, on the other hand (as we understand it today), has a specific aesthetic quality.

 

[unknown]

and what is this specific aesthetic quality? does it go above the music? keep in mind that adulterating the "pure" black metal sound in anyway is experimenting. it seems there are some fine lines between pure/tr00 black metal, "post"black metal (whatever that is), and experimental black metal. How I see it is experimental black metal bands have truly gone off the deep end. Look at uneXpect. They took the idea Arcturus (LMI), Devil Doll and a few others had in the mid to late 90s and just took it to the extreme.

What are we to classify Ved Buens Ende and Fluerety?

and to return to an earlier point brought up by LuminousAether, "post" has become such a huge umbrella term. Cult of Luna? Isis?

I don't even know. I'm going to stop listening to music.

 

[Krow]

"Post metal" is sludge metal + post rock almost always.

Again it has nothing to do with the progression of the genre or whatever.

 

[unknown]

and just to complicate issues further/play devil's advocate. I provide the following links:

http://www.last.fm/tag/post-black+metal
http://thenumberoftheblog.com/2010/02/03/the-state-of-metal-post-black-metal/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bringa/Post-black_metal

but if you search M-A for "post black metal" under music genre, you get the following:

1. Angst Skvadron Avant-garde/Post-Black Metal
2. Caïna Raw Black Metal (early), Post-Black Metal (later)
3. Cygnus Loop Post-Black Metal
4. December Wolves Death/Black Metal, Industrial Post-Black Metal
5. Eclectika Experimental/Post-black Metal
6. Ephel Duath Progressive Post-Black Metal (early), Avant-Garde Jazz/Metal (later)
7. Favna Abisal Avant-garde Metal / Post-Black Metal
8. H.O.P.E Symphonic Post-Black Metal/Indie Rock
9. Lengsel Progressive Black Metal (early), Post-Black Metal/Depressive Rock (later)
10. Lilyum Post-Thrash/Groove Metal (early), Black Metal (later)
11. Mord'A'Stigmata Post-Black/Avant-garde Metal
12. Morowe Post-Black Metal
13. Nepauz-Had Post Black Metal
14. Ordo Draconis Black Metal/Post-Black Metal
15. Oxiplegatz Symphonic/Post-Black Metal
16. Sigh Black Metal (early), Post-Black/Avant-Garde Metal (later)
17. Solefald Post-Black Metal, Avant-garde
18. Sonichaos Aeon Industrial/Post Black Metal
19. Svartnad Depressive Post-Rock/Post-Black Metal
20. Terzij de Horde Post-Black Metal
21. The Sprawlcosm Industrial/Post-Black Metal
22. Transcending Bizarre?

 

[Einherjar86]

and what is this specific aesthetic quality? does it go above the music? keep in mind that adulterating the "pure" black metal sound in anyway is experimenting.

Very true, but the bands mentioned earlier (i.e. Solefald, Arcturus, etc.) have very little, if any, consistency in their sound (other than the fact that it's experimental), whereas bands typically considered post black metal exhibit more of what I would call aesthetic consistency.

 

[unknown]

true but few black metal bands are consistent in their sound. Darkthrone, Immortal, Bathory, Deathspell Omega, Negura Bunget whatever...most start off as "one" sound (death metal, straight black metal whatever) and then evolve into something else.

I'm just asking, how do we reconcile with this. How do we define this? What is this "aesthetic quality"? Why does Last.fm have Solefald, Lantlos and Ved Buens Ende all lumped under "Post-black metal"?

And now we see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help I'm being repressed!

 

[unknown]

and it seems they're having the same argument on the Last.fm page

 

[Einherjar86]

Well, who labels the genres on last.fm?

 

[unknown]

don't ask me rhetorical questions, you! It's either consensus or we nominate some arch-demigod to determine what's what

in before Doden's labels it all "shit"

edit: and for what it's worth, those almost 2000 listeners may think there's something in common. perhaps "post black metal" is the appropriate umbrella term for all of the related tags. I have offered my own aesthetic definition and asked what I felt were reasonable followup questions and rebuttals. I'm not trying to be a prick or bust your's (einherjar's) balls; I'm just genuinely interested because obviously there is a huge difference in how these bands sound

 

[Einherjar86]

I was genuinely wondering if the labels are assigned by listeners or by a moderator of sorts. Sorry if it seemed condescending. And don't worry about busting balls; we have a kind of rapport, but you can tell me when you think I'm wrong.

I'd call the aesthetic similarity between bands I classify as "post black metal" (i.e. Black Lotus, Fen, Altar of Plagues, Wolves in the Throne Room, Wodensthrone, Castavet, Cobalt, etc) a folk/pagan/ecological (which I think are all closely intertwined) element combined with a drone-esque quality and often quiet, atmospheric (either ambient or clean guitar) passages.

 

[skeptik]

I don't believe any individual argument can be made for what is or is not post-black metal. It's a term that is amorphous in its very nature, and quite frankly for one to scoff at another's claim that a band largely structured in the black metal sound is "post-" is kind of ridiculous. Not only because the term itself is amorphous, but because the term can identify multiple sounds, as the term "death rock" does.

@unknown: I like early Fleurety and Ved Buens Ende (the latter of which you should already be aware of), though I'm not sure how many other "post-black metal" bands I'm actually familiar with. I'm not sure if I would identify a band like Cobalt as such, though I haven't heard enough of their material to really judge. Personally, though, I prefer to more accurately identify a band's sound, and I don't think "post-black metal" accomplishes that.

 

[Vossyrus]

I don't believe any individual argument can be made for what is or is not post-black metal. It's a term that is amorphous in its very nature, and quite frankly for one to scoff at another's claim that a band largely structured in the black metal sound is "post-" is kind of ridiculous. Not only because the term itself is amorphous, but because the term can identify multiple sounds, as the term "death rock" does.

I agree with you. Except, deathrock (aka death rock) is an actual style of music closely associated with goth rock.

 

[challenge_everything]

I don't really see what's so difficult. Post rock has developed a pretty specifically definable sound. Post black metal seems an apt term for bands who draw on post rock influences and black metal influences to create that droney, atmospheric "wall of sound" kind of thing.

As for Solefald, Arcturus, Fleurety etc, it's music that deliberately tries to sound like no other, so what description can you give it other than "experimental" or "avant-garde" - other than describing in detail the particular sound on the album (La Masquerade Infernale as "progressive symphonic burlesque metal"!?)

 

[skeptik]

I agree with you. Except, deathrock (aka death rock) is an actual style of music closely associated with goth rock.

It's also "closely associated" with another style of music, which is the point I was making.

I don't really see what's so difficult. Post rock has developed a pretty specifically definable sound. Post black metal seems an apt term for bands who draw on post rock influences and black metal influences to create that droney, atmospheric "wall of sound" kind of thing.

It's also "an apt term" for other bands who sound different, which, again, was my point. That point being that genre terms are not as helpful as one would think.

 

[The Emptier]

I used to like this thread.

 

[Einherjar86]

I don't really see what's so difficult. Post rock has developed a pretty specifically definable sound. Post black metal seems an apt term for bands who draw on post rock influences and black metal influences to create that droney, atmospheric "wall of sound" kind of thing.

As for Solefald, Arcturus, Fleurety etc, it's music that deliberately tries to sound like no other, so what description can you give it other than "experimental" or "avant-garde" - other than describing in detail the particular sound on the album (La Masquerade Infernale as "progressive symphonic burlesque metal"!?)

I agree with this.

For the record, I understand what Dodens means; but for the sake of simplicity (or complexity...?) I adhere to the terminology and genealogy that challenge laid out.

 

[Eligos]

I think unknown and I were getting at the same point - post black metal is a term that describes a wide variety of bands, not limited to a small movement in the late nineties, nor the growing roster of bands combining post rock and black metal.