Mort Divine
Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd
In the old days PERHAPS, but it has evolved past the need for that ideological bullshit bit and can be played as a Christian or not.
Black Metal.
- Thread starter ROBL2500
- Start date
unknown
fuck ftagn
Sorry to repeat myself, but how does a single person's perception of a band's motivations have any impact on reality? Your point doesn't prove anything.
This point makes even less sense - you argue that movies should be classified by their contents, but we should ignore some of the contents (the lyrics) when we classify music?newBLACKways said:
Hubster
...
^ No.
Infact, this is what the Black metal underground describes as the very artists they hate. "Bypassing" Black Metal's motive is the very "selling out of Black Metal" which the underground despises. It has NOT evolved beyond the bullshit as you describe. Musically it can evolve (within the boundaries of the philosophy), philosophically it can not, it is not supposed to. The rules are meant to be strict, permanent, not temporary or open to suggestion. This in itself is a form of rebellion against typical Christian-Western thinking. It is meant to be elitist, pompous and strict.
Christianity has no place in Black Metal. Black Metal is about rebellion, misanthropy, and in a religious context, of pre-organised religious aspects i.e. paganism, and nationalism (not national socialism because philosophically, NSBM is just a reaction to the teenaged angst displayed by Varg just before his imprisonment, which lots of stupid angry and insecure people decided to ride the coat tails of. many in the true Black Metal underground condemn NSBM is a trend itself).
A lot of people here seem to be casual listeners, or at least, those who appreciate the music, but have little interest in discovering why Black Metal is the way it is, thus, they get to experience only part of the phenomenon that is Black Metal.
Unlike many subtypes of metal, I strongly feel that understanding Black Metal goes beyond the music, infact, the music itself is simply a voice for the Black Metal philosophy, which has grown into expression of ethnic expression (e.g. Drudkh) whilst adhering to the core values. Without a good understanding of the philosophy, the music will just seem "like music", as opposed to what it really is: an anti-metal and anti-life expression.
Junk. Stuff that many Black Metal enthusiasts won't waste time on. Black Metal musically, but Christian philosophically is akin to these fuckwits we see walking around in Ramones shirts just because its apparently cool to do so, all the while displaying how brainless they really are.
Mort Divine
Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd
Yeah, go ahead and think that - I'll buy into the whole black metal is art music thing, I honestly believe that - but I won't buy into that bullshit.
Hubster
...
You don't have to. You just need to understand it, and how it effects the legitimacy of what you're listening to. You don't have to like it though.
Mort Divine
Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd
It isn't like I listen to any Christian black metal, and find most of it to be shit, but I'm just saying that it isn't impossible. Because music genres are based on .. well duh music.
Virtually every genre of music has an ideology associated with it - why do you insist on ignoring part of the music when you consider what movement it belongs to? Why not judge the art as a whole?
Hubster
...
The same strict adherence to an ideology in Black Metal is the same type of adherence which enabled Early Music/Renaissance (1400-1600) to be as beautiful as it was. Had the devotion to a religious ideology in those times not been as strong, we would never have seen so much incredible music come out of that time period, and forward into the Baroque period (1600-1750, with Claudio Monteverdi being the first).
EDIT: sorry if it seems like I'm bullying, Mort, not meant to mate. I just think that understanding the non-musical aspects of a musical art form that you love is important, that's all.
EDIT: sorry if it seems like I'm bullying, Mort, not meant to mate. I just think that understanding the non-musical aspects of a musical art form that you love is important, that's all.
But NSBM most always has themes of nationalism, paganism, rebellion, etc. - are you saying NSBM isn't real black metal either?
You sound like a Christian writing off metal itself as a trend.
Hubster
...
But NSBM most always has themes of nationalism, paganism, rebellion, etc. - are you saying NSBM isn't real black metal either?
I mean in the context of Nationalism and National Socialism being two seperate entities. Both are different, and both have different philosophical trajactories in the context of Black Metal.
The "trendising" of NSBM is pretty clear as soon as one sees http://www.nsbm.org/groups/ where Burzum is listed as a NSBM band, which we all know is not the case.
Burzum is listed purely because of Varg's extreme-right commentary just before his court case began, and also because of a few comments he has made in the earlier years of imprisonment. However in various commentaries regarding Burzum's philosophy, Varg admits it has nothing to do with his political views as it does celebrating his ethnic roots and Tolkienism.
The NSBM scene hailed Vikernes as a martyr and thus made a mountain out of a molehill. It only proves how shallow that scene is imo. Further evidence lies in many of the albums in NSBM, few actually depict their political beliefs into the music itself, but more so into the artwork, linear notes, and various links that labels and bands have on their sites.
I feel kind of split in two about whether I consider NSBM to be a legitimate form of Black Metal: on the one hand, I feel the National Socialist involvement (post-Vikernes) is somewhat an accidental occurance (in light of my earlier paragraphs) and only few bands at all take it seriously, as opposed to a selling tool. On the other hand, NSBM expresses pagan influences & ideologies beautifully like few non-National Socialist bands can. The extremism of the poltics enables a higher art form to exist (and of course, extremism can breed beauty, we've seen in various forms throughout history).
It's a difficult call: part "this is bullshit" and part "wow there's some amazing cultural influences here". Half of me wants to label it bullshit, but the other half cannot deny the beauty of Kataxu, the arid-like beauty of Hate Forest, or some of the brilliant punk-like moments in late period Absurd.
skeptik
Member
- Feb 7, 2003
- 24,413
- 71
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Everyone seems to be forgetting that there is more than one legitimate sense of what Black Metal is. In once instance, Black Metal is a sound, a form of Metal music, that generally creates a certain atmosphere. Ideological merits, though often "in sync," are not entirely relevant in this sense. Then you have the purely ideological sense of Black Metal that began in Norway, where (or so it seems) the ideology comes first and from that is built the sounds. However, pre-dating the Norwegian kiddies are the original Black Metal bands who fucking laugh at them for being so goddamn full of themselves, trouncing about in their mother's makeup and S&M outfits. While all of these different mindsets are distinct and particular, I don't think that one has to limit oneself to only one definition as to what Black Metal is (and one certainly doesn't have to be a dick about it). While Antestor or whoever else may not necessarily fit the categorization of the latter two categories, it has that particular and distinct sound and atmosphere that has become recognized as Black Metal. While it may not adhere to what some call the 'original principles' that really began in Norway as a mindset and therefore is far past the origins of the genre itself, it reaches the aesthetics of what it has come to be known as Black Metal.
Zephyrus
Tyrants and Slaves
ohiogrinder
New Metal Member
- Mar 15, 2006
- 5,392
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Hubster
...
ohiogrinder
New Metal Member
- Mar 15, 2006
- 5,392
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Life Sucks
and then you die
I don't mind TH, either (all the songs are very good, except for Skav Av Satans Sol); it just that it's definitely not their best, in my opinion. My ranking of the first five:
1. Panzerfaust
2. ABITNS
3. Soulside Journey
4. Under a Funeral Moon
5. Transylvanian Hunger
Dazed and Brutal
Yall About to Witness
1. A Blaze in the Northern Sky
2. Under a Funeral Moon
3. Transylvanian Hunger
4. Soulside Journey
5. Panzerfaust
for me
Unfortunately for you, though, quoting originators as they make ridiculous comments like that, doesn't in any way disprove what Hubster is absolutely 100% correct in stating (if that was what you were attempting). Also, to put this topic further in context, I believe it would also be necessary to point out exactly how much more intelligent the second wave of black metal is, compared to the first. It was a unified art movement, as synchronized as it was diverse and contrasted, whereas the first wave was merely a number of "kiddies" who, by chance, most likely, started touching upon a well of artistic inspiration. This is a pretty clear example of what the power of a clear ideology can do, if you ask me. Let's just hope that boys like Mort Divine isn't able to tear it down through their vapid propaganda.
Also, I believe in a universal truth. The thought that there are several legitimate ways of looking at black metal is quite ludicrous to me.
Krigloch the Furious
Pants full of poo
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