Black Metal.

[skeptik]

Unfortunately for you, though, quoting originators as they make ridiculous comments like that, doesn't in any way disprove what Hubster is absolutely 100% correct in stating (if that was what you were attempting). Also, to put this topic further in context, I believe it would also be necessary to point out exactly how much more intelligent the second wave of black metal is, compared to the first. It was a unified art movement, as synchronized as it was diverse and contrasted, whereas the first wave was merely a number of "kiddies" who, by chance, most likely, started touching upon a well of artistic inspiration. This is a pretty clear example of what the power of a clear ideology can do, if you ask me. Let's just hope that boys like Mort Divine isn't able to tear it down through their vapid propaganda.

Considering the fact that the second wave obviously did not exist while the first wave was happening, I don't see how the second wave's interpretation of Black Metal should be held as the true essence of what Black Metal should be when it bastardized what it originally was to the point where half of the people who listen to Black Metal don't even recognize the first wave as Black Metal anymore.

I wasn't trying to justify a compatibility between Black Metal and Christianity under this pretext, I was just questioning the notion of the second wave of Black Metal being the "true essence" of what Black Metal should be, because by doing so it would negate many of the bands that came before it, which would be revisionism.

Also, I believe in a universal truth. The thought that there are several legitimate ways of looking at black metal is quite ludicrous to me.

The concept of a 'universal truth' is quite ludicrous to me, but whatever, that's just a difference of interpretation I suppose, and can't be resolved.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Considering the fact that the second wave obviously did not exist while the first wave was happening, I don't see how the second wave's interpretation of Black Metal should be held as the true essence of what Black Metal should be when it bastardized what it originally was to the point where half of the people who listen to Black Metal don't even recognize the first wave as Black Metal anymore.

I wasn't trying to justify a compatibility between Black Metal and Christianity under this pretext, I was just questioning the notion of the second wave of Black Metal being the "true essence" of what Black Metal should be, because by doing so it would negate many of the bands that came before it, which would be revisionism.

Well, seeing as the first wave of black metal, which is a movement I believe in just as much as you do, just to get that cleared out, still retained a great many of the elements that the music of their contemporaries shared (damnit, that's an awful sentence, but i can't be arsed to rewrite it). Venom, though black metal in essence, still sounds a great deal like a thrash band. Same with Sodom. Mercyful Fate sounds like a heavy metal band and Celtic Frost sounds like somewhat like death metal. And so on and so on. Therefor, it is only natural say that the second wave is "purer", seeing as at this point, the artists shed away the last traces of the other metal genres completely.

 

[Mort Divine]

Let's just hope that boys like Mort Divine isn't able to tear it down through their vapid propaganda.

God damn, this guy doesn't have a stick up there he's found a way to hide a fucking baseball bat up his ass.

 

[Hatebreeder]

I don't really give a shit if the lyrics are about Christianity; if the music sucks, then I won't listen to it. This is why I usually stay away from Christian bands: they take the formula of whatever genre they belong to, stamp "CHRISTIAN" on it, and focus more on some lame feel-good message than any musical progression or quality. So I don't hate bands for the pure sake of hating their Christian views, it's just that most of them have little musical talent because they're more worried about spreading a good positive message than instrumental value.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I mean in the context of Nationalism and National Socialism being two seperate entities. Both are different, and both have different philosophical trajactories in the context of Black Metal.

The "trendising" of NSBM is pretty clear as soon as one sees http://www.nsbm.org/groups/ where Burzum is listed as a NSBM band, which we all know is not the case.

Burzum is listed purely because of Varg's extreme-right commentary just before his court case began, and also because of a few comments he has made in the earlier years of imprisonment. However in various commentaries regarding Burzum's philosophy, Varg admits it has nothing to do with his political views as it does celebrating his ethnic roots and Tolkienism.

The NSBM scene hailed Vikernes as a martyr and thus made a mountain out of a molehill. It only proves how shallow that scene is imo. Further evidence lies in many of the albums in NSBM, few actually depict their political beliefs into the music itself, but more so into the artwork, linear notes, and various links that labels and bands have on their sites.

I feel kind of split in two about whether I consider NSBM to be a legitimate form of Black Metal: on the one hand, I feel the National Socialist involvement (post-Vikernes) is somewhat an accidental occurance (in light of my earlier paragraphs) and only few bands at all take it seriously, as opposed to a selling tool. On the other hand, NSBM expresses pagan influences & ideologies beautifully like few non-National Socialist bands can. The extremism of the poltics enables a higher art form to exist (and of course, extremism can breed beauty, we've seen in various forms throughout history).

It's a difficult call: part "this is bullshit" and part "wow there's some amazing cultural influences here". Half of me wants to label it bullshit, but the other half cannot deny the beauty of Kataxu, the arid-like beauty of Hate Forest, or some of the brilliant punk-like moments in late period Absurd.

Your comments are equally applicable to black metal as a whole. Compare what the NSBM 'scene' did with Vikernes to what the Norwegian scene did with Venom. Many NSBM bands use the Nazi taboo as a selling tool in exactly the same way black metal bands use the occult and satanism. The argument against Christian black metal is wholly different to the one you are making here, and you diminish the former by associating it with the latter in this thread, I think. Nothing in NSBM is incompatible with the original black metal ideology in the way that Christianity is.

I think Burzum easily falls into a wider definition of NSBM, which seems to be commonly used to describe any black metal made by artists who express nationalist/racist beliefs. NSBM.org is just a troll anyway.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

God damn, this guy doesn't have a stick up there he's found a way to hide a fucking baseball bat up his ass.

Well, I'm sorry, but I think your attempts at making black metal more open and friendly is exactly what makes it collapse from within today.

Of course, just laughing at legitimate opinions is the best way to make them go away.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

I think Burzum easily falls into a wider definition of NSBM, which seems to be commonly used to describe any black metal made by artists who express nationalist/racist beliefs.

NS = National Socialism

I can buy that many racist bands falls under the NSBM umbrealla, but nationalist black metal? Come on, that stretch is not only insulting to nationalists (myself included), but also false and stupid.

 

[Mort Divine]

I'm not trying to make it more open and friendly, I have fucknothing to bring to issue with the supposedly "ideology" - just it isn't required for a band to be black metal.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I can buy that many racist bands falls under the NSBM umbrealla, but nationalist black metal? Come on, that stretch is not only insulting to nationalists (myself included), but also false and stupid.

Where do you draw the line? Nationalism is essentially a mild form of racism, so how racist does a band have to be before you would consider them NSBM? If not Burzum, then perhaps Drudkh? Unless we are talking about non-ethnic nationalism. I was speaking of nationalism in the ethnic sense, which my directly associating it with racism should have clued you in to.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

As much as I like political discussions zombie, can we reroute the discussion back to, you know...black metal?

 

[Crimson Velvet]

We are discussing black metal.

And thisisaformicatable, I'd say a band becomes NSBM when they, you know, have lyrics about about Nazism. Makes sense, doesn't it?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

You're discussing ideologies and political affiliations from what I can tell. Start talking about the music. And stop being contrary just for the sake of it.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

And thisisaformicatable, I'd say a band becomes NSBM when they, you know, have lyrics about about Nazism. Makes sense, doesn't it?

But you just said that "many racist bands falls under the NSBM umbrealla". So is NSBM reserved in your mind for bands supporting official Hitler brand Nazism, or do racist/(ethnic)nationalist/antisemitic/etc. bands count as well? And do you limit this to the band's lyrics, or also include their entire image and ideological expressions?

You're discussing ideologies and political affiliations from what I can tell.

...as they apply to black metal. You seem to imply a desire to drastically limit the amount of interesting discussion that can take place here.

P.S. are you going to address my debunking of the argument used to support your "absolutely UNARGUABLE" point?

 

[Alter]

anyone know of any good post-black metal?

 

[Hubster]

Agalloch!

 

[Alter]

Agalloch!

well yes that a given.

 

[Matt]

I don't really give a shit if the lyrics are about Christianity; if the music sucks, then I won't listen to it. This is why I usually stay away from Christian bands: they take the formula of whatever genre they belong to, stamp "CHRISTIAN" on it, and focus more on some lame feel-good message than any musical progression or quality. So I don't hate bands for the pure sake of hating their Christian views, it's just that most of them have little musical talent because they're more worried about spreading a good positive message than instrumental value.

I agree with this message.

 

[Hubster]

You're discussing ideologies and political affiliations from what I can tell. Start talking about the music. And stop being contrary just for the sake of it.

Sorry if I'm being naughty here V, but I have a question for American Black Metal enthusiasts: do you feel that USBM differs philosophically from Norsk Black Metal? How?

 

[Alter]

Sorry if I'm being naughty here V, but I have a question for American Black Metal enthusiasts: do you feel that USBM differs philosophically from Norsk Black Metal? How?

well yes. They seem to a have a more extreme version of attacking the chruch. They seem to attack it from every corner and have taken the idea of satanism and have crafted it to fit there mind. Also the occult seems to be used more in lyrics.

sorry i am not really a Black Metal enthusiast but i wanted to answer

 

[Hubster]

That surprises me: if anything, I thought the USBM scene was much less religiously focussed than that of Europe, which frankly, has a far more longstanding history with Christianity.

Explain how they have a more extreme outlook against the Church?