Black Metal.

[Crimson Velvet]

Generalize much?

Let's face it... What would this forum be without wise men like myself making mean, generalizing posts that still manages to strike just close enough to home to make it sting a little, thus sparking a little controversy which again plants the seed of conversation?

 

[skeptik]

Xasthur and Leviathan were formed during the Clinton administration, also known as the most prosperous economic period of expansion and growth in the history of the world, so I don't buy that argument too much. I don't think all of these influences everyone is citing are as influential as you'd like to believe on the bands' creative processes. I also think it's laughable to compare a country to an entire continent, and I don't think its "dominance" has much to do with its 'rich' 'culture and history...' or as much as you think that it does.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Generalize much?

...what the fuck? It's a perfectly valid point. A GOOD portion of black metal requires multiple, concentrated listens to fully grasp artistic intents, and to some people indeed, this is the step that makes BM better than DM (NOT TO ME, I'M JUST SAYING IT). What an absolutely pointless thing for you to call me out on.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I'm more inclined to believe that the US scene had to branch out from the norm because otherwise they would (rightfully) be considered rip offs of the European bands who came before them.

Wow, you must hate USBM. I'm more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe they are actually suicidal and depressed, instead of the massive poseurs your theory makes them out to be.

Exterior influences in life almost always provide the influence for art. Everyone knows the US is currently in a darker than usual period thanks to the Administration, and no doubt this does effect peoples' well being and happiness in their lives.

I think you insult the American black metal scene if you paint them as a bunch of democracy loving populists who would be happy if Bush were impeached and the war were over. If that were the case they would share the feelings of a huge amount of their countrymen, hardly a recipe for suicidal thoughts. It's probably more the isolation factor, along with a general disgust for the American way of life - where else would misanthropy (etc.) come in to play?

Having not lived in any other country, I can't say how things are different, although I know cultural origins play a huge part in European black metal.

To add my own anecdotal experience, I must say that America seems a godless shithole compared to Canada.

I do think the political climate adds to it though - we've all been stressed and afraid since 9/11, and our lives are more locked down than ever before.

Have you anything to back this up? Lyrics, imagery, interviews, etc.? I don't see much reference to current politics in black metal, more in bands like Green Day and U2. If you have some I'd be curious to see it.

I don't think all of these influences everyone is citing are as influential as you'd like to believe on the bands' creative processes. I also think it's laughable to compare a country to an entire continent, and I don't think its "dominance" has much to do with its 'rich' 'culture and history...' or as much as you think that it does.

Europe's cultural and history are easily one of the chief inspirations of black metal (Burzum, Enslaved, Emperor, church burnings) - even more nowadays it seems with the prevalence of folk, pagan, and nationalist themes in European black metal. What do you think the key differentiating factors are?

...what the fuck? It's a perfectly valid point. A GOOD portion of black metal requires multiple, concentrated listens to fully grasp artistic intents, and to some people indeed, this is the step that makes BM better than DM (NOT TO ME, I'M JUST SAYING IT). What an absolutely pointless thing for you to call me out on.

I disagree that it is "perfectly valid", as a "GOOD" portion of death metal requires the same.

 

[skeptik]

Europe's cultural and history are easily one of the chief inspirations of black metal (Burzum, Enslaved, Emperor, church burnings) - even more nowadays it seems with the prevalence of folk, pagan, and nationalist themes in European black metal. What do you think the key differentiating factors are?

I think it had more to do with their surroundings and group mentality than anything deeper than that, though obviously the culture and history are obviously important. I just question how important it actually was as a primary motivation, as it's clearly one of, if not the most, important secondary motivations or influences.

 

[Hubster]

(Apologies in advance for skewing off-topic):

I don't think its "dominance" has much to do with its 'rich' 'culture and history...' or as much as you think that it does.

One needs only to look at the historically repititious musical patterns in history to realise that you are incorrect.

The US is an infant country in comparison to various countries throughout Europe. This is reflected in (overall) musical and artistic evolution and complexity, as well as cultural evolution including religious and mythology aspects. I speak not just in terms of Black Metal output, but also in terms of the most important music of all: Western Art Music.

From the Medieval Period (476AD, although highly influenced by the Middle-East) right through to the Romantic Period ending approx 1910, covering a timeline of one and a half millennia, Europe held the throne to musical evolution and supremacy, founded by culture which in the 5th century was already rich in religion, mythology and art.

The rise of the modern age of humanity, namely that of the industrial revolution, swung the world's focus from that of Europe to America, where popular music has held focus since, a mere period of only approximately 100 years.

Taking into account the above influences, there is no way that USBM or US metal for that matter will EVER touch the level produced by the countries of Europe, simply because of a lesser cultural depth.

This is not to say that America is not capable of producing good BM, but rather that it has less historical and cultural resources to draw from: foundations are everything. And it is not only ideological or lyrical aspects which these characteristics influence, it is also the very notes and structure of the music itself.

Thus this leads me back to the very nature of repitition I spoke of earlier: as Europe did with Western Art Music, it leads and evolves now and has for almost three decades with Metal, chiefly Doom and Black.

 

[skeptik]

You think far too highly of the artists you admire. I hardly think Varg and Euronymous and Ihsahn were so enlightened about their cultural and musical history as young adults and twenty-somethings.

And American artists have the same pool of resources to draw from. Boundaries are no longer so confined. Just because you don't live in the Scandinavian mountains does not mean you can't go there or be inspired by them. I really think you're carrying this line of thinking out far more than it is fit to go, and drawing conclusions from unfounded hypotheses. I mean, the least you could do is cite Ulver's Bergtatt.

EDIT: Oh, and this statement is total bullshit:

Taking into account the above influences, there is no way that USBM or US metal for that matter will EVER touch the level produced by the countries of Europe, simply because of a lesser cultural depth.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

(Apologies in advance for skewing off-topic):



One needs only to look at the historically repititious musical patterns in history to realise that you are incorrect...

In the age of the internet, cultural influence is no longer limited regionally in the way it was during the previous periods you mention. People in America - recent immigrants and their children, for example - can often be far more in tune with their cultural roots than their counterparts in their countries of origin. For these reasons and others I find you to be drawing too many absolute conclusions from an unsteady premise.

Also, black metal *is* pop music - it rarely rises above (or moves away from, to use a more neutral phrase) from this level. This might give kids in the USA an advantage.

You think far too highly of the artists you admire. I hardly think Varg and Euronymous and Ihsahn were so enlightened about their cultural and musical history as young adults and twenty-somethings.

Don't assume it must be conscious; culture is absorbed from the conditions one grows up in. Don't assume the whole world is as culturally vapid as America. I agree that it may not be the primary influence behind their music but that it is an essential one.

 

[Hubster]

You think far too highly of the artists you admire. I hardly think Varg and Euronymous and Ihsahn were so enlightened about their cultural and musical history as young adults and twenty-somethings.

And American artists have the same pool of resources to draw from. Boundaries are no longer so confined. Just because you don't live in the Scandinavian mountains does not mean you can't go there or be inspired by them. I really think you're carrying this line of thinking out far more than it is fit to go, and drawing conclusions from unfounded hypotheses. I mean, the least you could do is cite Ulver's Bergtatt.

EDIT: Oh, and this statement is total bullshit:

No I don't think too highly of them. Ihsahn as an example is a big fan of classical music and a highly intelligent man. Same goes with Vikernes, despite his political persuasions. You'd be surprised at how culturally aware some people are at young ages.

American artists do not have the same pool to draw from, from the simple fact that they have one blink of an eye's history in comparison to European countries. Sure, USBM can be influenced by it, but it cannot express culture in the same way that European countries can. It is different when something is in your blood and you have grown up with it as a massive part of your life. It shapes how you think, how you view things, and in the case of Black Metal, how you create.

Yes - you can be inspired by the Scandinavian mountains, but the result will be akin to that of watching a DVD about driving a car, and then jumping into one expecting to know how to drive perfectly The result is lesser, not to mention, not the same.

 

[MasterOLightning]

No I don't think too highly of them. Ihsahn as an example is a big fan of classical music and a highly intelligent man. Same goes with Vikernes, despite his political persuasions. You'd be surprised at how culturally aware some people are at young ages.

American artists do not have the same pool to draw from, from the simple fact that they have one blink of an eye's history in comparison to European countries. Sure, USBM can be influenced by it, but it cannot express culture in the same way that European countries can. It is different when something is in your blood and you have grown up with it as a massive part of your life. It shapes how you think, how you view things, and in the case of Black Metal, how you create.

Yes - you can be inspired by the Scandinavian mountains, but the result will be akin to that of watching a DVD about driving a car, and then jumping into one expecting to know how to drive perfectly The result is lesser, not to mention, not the same.

It's not like there aren't mountains or forests, or deserts or canyons in America. America is fucking huge, and it's full of beautiful scenery. It might be the most geographically diverse nation on the planet. Yet, nature imagery is not very prevalent. US black metal artists are more influenced by city life and landscapes. Take Xasthur for example. In one of the album sleeves, he's got a picture of the shack he lives in with a noose hanging from the ceiling. It represents his surroundings --not nature-- but isolation and death.

You are missing the primary reason why USBM has not made a significant presence felt wordwide: the lack of a unified scene. We've seen the US (in spite of all it's cultural woes ) produce Bay Area Thrash and Florida Death Metal, two of the greatest outbursts of musical creativity metal has seen. Black metal bands are not concentrated in any degree like that, and that's a large factor in why USBM has not peaked yet.

 

[cookiecutter]

That's a good point. My favorite USBM bands are from Chicago, and San Francisco, and I'm from Boston. That makes me at the very least 1500 miles from my favorite bands in my own country. And there are no US scenes for BM like DM has in NY, Texas, and California.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

You think far too highly of the artists you admire. I hardly think Varg and Euronymous and Ihsahn were so enlightened about their cultural and musical history as young adults and twenty-somethings.

And American artists have the same pool of resources to draw from. Boundaries are no longer so confined. Just because you don't live in the Scandinavian mountains does not mean you can't go there or be inspired by them. I really think you're carrying this line of thinking out far more than it is fit to go, and drawing conclusions from unfounded hypotheses. I mean, the least you could do is cite Ulver's Bergtatt.

EDIT: Oh, and this statement is total bullshit:

Yet, the fact remains that the amount of quality black metal to come out from the US is not even worth mentioning compared to that of Europa. Why do you think that is, Dødens? Honestly, i'm interested in your view on this.

EDIT: Just saw MasterOLightning's post, and I thought that was a very good point, although not quite satisfactory. Surely, somewhere in the US, there are a large enough gathering of black metal fans to qualify as a scene, had they only had the artistic vision to make it so. The root of the question is rather what has caused this lack of just that.

 

[Jreg]

Exterior influences in life almost always provide the influence for art. Everyone knows the US is currently in a darker than usual period thanks to the Administration, and no doubt this does effect peoples' well being and happiness in their lives.

The US scene is probably already considered a ripoff anyway (from my perspective, I think the US scene has some good contributions, but just not many), the suicide thematic would do little to prove the US isn't following the tails of Europe. (I hope no one finds this offensive, its not meant to be).

Let's face it folks, the entire world is trying to catch up with Europe's dominance in Black Metal, and frankly, as a generalisation, I can't see Europe being overtaken due to how rich it is in culture and history, combined with the diverse and beautiful natural environments it has.

Well this how I see it: The prototypes for black metal were predominately European. Their successors who unified the genre, set many of the precedents, engaged in the scandals that brought it into the limelight, and became collectively known as the second wave of black metal---they were European as well. The current biggest names in the genre are damn near exclusively European. Hell, even at the more underground level, most of the more highly praised acts are still from there. If the continent's reign as kings of black metal ever ends, I'm sure it won't be any time soon. And anybody would be hard-pressed to claim that BM bands anywhere else in the world aren't at least highly influenced by Europe---if not total ripoffs.

I'm no cultural geographer or a sociologist, and it would be meaningless of me to try and pinpoint the influences of a music scene from an area I have never experienced and whose history I'm not exceptionally familiar with. Also, I'm hesitant to overstate the impact of those elements in an increasingly global society. But environment (cultural, physical, and social) affects art to one degree or another, and if it is claimed that there was something distinctly "European" about the environment that bred the classic black metal sound, then I see no reason to immediately reject that claim.

Not that it matters tremendously to me though. I mean, if you trace things back a bit, there was probably American music that (directly or indirectly) had a hand in making black metal what it became, so it's not exactly a culturally or ethnically pure music. The USBM bands are kind of doing the same thing with the tables turned---don't get me wrong though, there are a number of American bands I love. And even if they sometimes come off as overly derivative parodies of their European peers, I say let them derive. Some of the American suicidal bands created a relatively distinct style by extrapolating certain elements of traditional black metal and trying their own thing with it. Bands like Xasthur and Leviathan aren't really my cup of tea, but the fact that the US was able to help bring forth a style of black metal that some consider uniquely American is promising in a way. What comes off as a joke right now might evolve into something great eventually.

 

[skeptik]

The American Metal culture has never focused on Black Metal. It was too busy birthing Traditional, Thrash, and Death Metal bands left and right.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Haha, nice try, but no cigar! That still doesn't explain the influx of US black metal bands today, but nearly all them... you know... sucking cock.

 

[skeptik]

Nearly all Black Metal across the board sucks today. What's your point?

I admit that I understated the significance of culture and history, but I don't think that America having such a rich history would produce such inspired music of the Black Metal persuasion. It's merely one factor of many.

 

[George]

We can't forget that due to the number of one-man bands the amount of touring of USBM bands is low. If you think about it touring helps very much in forming a unified scene.

Just look at Punk, and how touring really helped connect people even across the country. Opening venues and putting on DIY tours are all great for building a foundation.

Due to the personal aspect of Black Metal it’s hard for me to say if this will catch on. I have a two person project going on right now and have neither plans nor interests to tour. So I think it depends on which way the musicians want to go.

 

[MasterOLightning]

I think in time the US scene will be similar to that of France. A lot of French bands (Blut Aus Nord, Spektr, Amesoures, etc.) are dealing with modernity/urban life. I don't really see French bands drawing on cultural history, possibly because life in France is not totally unlike that in America. We haven't seen anything of note come out of England yet. Same thing there. Life in Norway or Ukraine is just substantially different than in the US or England, and probably France too.

 

[Alter]

I think in time the US scene will be similar to that of France. A lot of French bands (Blut Aus Nord, Spektr, Amesoures, etc.) are dealing with modernity/urban life. I don't really see French bands drawing on cultural history, possibly because life in France is not totally unlike that in America. We haven't seen anything of note come out of England yet. Same thing there. Life in Norway or Ukraine is just substantially different than in the US or England, and probably France too.

I agree. I also think black metal HAS to find some new themes (not that winter,occult,death and the forest is bad) because if black metal does not evolve there will be a lack of good bands. I think modernity would be a cool subject, i mean amesoures did it and they made a great album(i like how they mixed post-punk with black metal).

 

[Mort Divine]

I also think one door to the evolution of black metal is the mixing of it with other "extreme" (or perhaps not even extreme) non-metal styles. Solstafir had the idea on their album Í Blóði og Anda with their mixture of black metal and screamo/post-hardcore.

I know alot of people are opposed to it and find it "impure" but lets face it - there is only so much that can be done, and when we're speaking of "pure" black metal (musically) how much of it is any good nowadays? Very little.

Fusions of two styles of music can create amazing results and kick the styles in the ass to start thinking creatively again.

I do really like the whole way the French scene is going lyrically though.