Black Metal.

[Crimson Velvet]

Mort Divine and V5, I will hereby demonstrate progression for you, so that even you can fathom this rather simple concept:

"Burzum"/"Det Som En gang Var" -> "Hvis Lyset Tar Oss" = PROGRESSION
"Under a Funeral Moon" -> "Transilvanian Hunger" = PROGRESSION
"Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism" -> "Pure Holocaust" = Progression
Or, to make it painfully obvious: "Blood Fire Death" -> "Hammerheart" = PROGRESSION

Now, and in this next one lies the misunderstanding:

"Filosofem" -> "Filosofem's riffs only with flamenco guitars strumming in the background and clean vocals" = NOT PROGRESSION
"Filosofem" -> "Filosofem's riffs only with defeatist lyrics about suicide" = NOT PROGRESSION
"any piece of well written black metal art" -> "any piece of well written black metal art added some random, unrelated music genre to fool IDIOTS" = NOT PROGRESSION


It's not that advanced...

EDIT: Damn you guys type fast...

Anyways, to progress in black metal, what you should do is not to add random, unrelated elements to the current framework, but rather, expand upon it, like it was done in the examples I gave above.

 

[Mort Divine]

Technically, that is progression as it is making advancements and movements forward. If you choose to see them as something else I can not help you.

 

[skeptik]

I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm saying, Dave, but I don't care enough to explain it to you. Others understand what I'm saying.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I understand what you are saying, but there are cases and examples where I do not believe it is true.

CV, have you heard Sear Bliss? I would like to know if you believe that is progression.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Technically, that is progression as it is making advancements and movements forward. If you choose to see them as something else I can not help you.

And if you think that adding random elements to the established framework equals progression, I think you underestimate the term. Progression implies adding to the depth of the genre, by expanding upon it at a fundamental level.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

I understand what you are saying, but there are cases and examples where I do not believe it is true.

CV, have you heard Sear Bliss? I would like to know if you believe that is progression.

Nope, never heard (of) them.

 

[Mort Divine]

I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm saying, Dave, but I don't care enough to explain it to you. Others understand what I'm saying.

I understand what you're saying, but I think the issue is who the fuck decides if a band is just tacking something on without the purpose of truly wanting to do something new with music. Who is to decide that adding shoegaze elements into black metal is a gimmick? I mean people have been mixing genres for years and yet you don't see people calling rock a gimmick for mixing blues and country. I just think that it is unfair to assume that just because a band does something "weird" they're doing it for nothing more than to do something weird, and that what they're doing is a regression of black metal or in some way a bastardization.

I get what you're saying, I just don't agree.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

To CV: That's YOUR definition of progression...some people's may differ, just as one person's unique evolution into a different kind of person may be seen by the person as a progression and by others as an idiot becoming different just to be different. It's just another bias.

CV, do me a favor:
http://myspace.com/searbliss

Listen to Arx Idolatriae, one of my favorite songs on Grand Destiny and allow me your thoughts on it. Thanks.

And I agree partially with both sides here, or, to be more accurate, I can see an argument of truth on both sides.

 

[skeptik]

Anyways, to progress in black metal, what you should do is not to add random, unrelated elements to the current framework, but rather, expand upon it, like it was done in the examples I gave above.

Kind of exactly my point, yeah.

Technically, that is progression as it is making advancements and movements forward. If you choose to see them as something else I can not help you.

But it's not progression in Black Metal. It's more progression in abstract random composition. Taking a couple "Black Metal" tremolo riffs and then putting in a horn section at random intervals, for example, does not constitute "Progressive Black Metal" but rather a mishmash of traits nearly exclusively identified with Black Metal and some horn sections. What makes it Progressive Black Metal is taking these two elements and making them into one in a cohesive fashion and not just merely two elements in the same song. They essentially become competing ideals when they should be complementing each other.

So yes, it is, in a sense, progression, to throw in some keyboards and violins over some tremolo riffs, but not necessarily Progressive Black Metal, and since this thread is about Black Metal, it's kind of useless to discuss things that aren't Black Metal.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

The song was... I dunno, nothing special? It didn't offend my senses or anything, but what exactly is it you feel it adds to the genre?

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Who is to decide that adding shoegaze elements into black metal is a gimmick?

It's easy, just ask a few questions: Why? What does this add to the music? What's the point? If you can't muster up anything other than it sounds cool, it's unique, it's different, then you probably have a gimmick.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Kind of exactly my point, yeah.

Yeah, I kinda stole it from you. It was worth repeating!

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

But I think it should be allowed because I don't really want to deal with a bunch of threads for types of BM or other music which you don't think apply in THIS topic.

Anyone making a post-black thread will be shot on sight.

 

[Mort Divine]

The "in cohesive" elements mixed into the black metal doesn't prevent it from being black metal still. As I've said I understand your points, I really do, I just disagree.

Anyways, there is a band I'd like to get everyones opinion on here. Negative Plane

 

[skeptik]

I understand what you're saying, but I think the issue is who the fuck decides if a band is just tacking something on without the purpose of truly wanting to do something new with music. Who is to decide that adding shoegaze elements into black metal is a gimmick? I mean people have been mixing genres for years and yet you don't see people calling rock a gimmick for mixing blues and country. I just think that it is unfair to assume that just because a band does something "weird" they're doing it for nothing more than to do something weird, and that what they're doing is a regression of black metal or in some way a bastardization.

I get what you're saying, I just don't agree.

I think you're confusing speakers. I never accused anyone of being a gimmick.

The point that you do bring up, of course, is a very interesting one. Who really is to decide what is genuinely a cohesive incorporation of foreign elements and what is just a mishmash, copy/paste job? The only real answer is that it's almost entirely subjective to the listener, which makes the matter that much harder. I never assumed that a band doing something different (or "weird") must be doing it merely for the sake of being different. I do think that there are bands who do this, but I certainly have no stigma against bands doing something different. And when I used the term bastardization, I didn't mean it in a pejorative fashion.

 

[skeptik]

Anyone making a post-black thread will be shot on sight.

Actually I think there already has been one.

 

[Mort Divine]

It's easy, just ask a few questions: Why? What does this add to the music? What's the point? If you can't muster up anything other than it sounds cool, it's unique, it's different, then you probably have a gimmick.

Shoegaze is not as opposed to the same ideas that black metal has, perhaps not ideologically but the DIY ethics and the whole package being required to understand the entire point of it. Mixing the two creates a sort of - I don't know, clash of two types of beauty.

The darkness of black metal combines with the lightness of shoegaze and in a sense forms this "complete" whole, something unified and greater than the two halves when separated.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Actually I think there already has been one.

*cocks gun*

 

[Mort Divine]

I think you're confusing speakers. I never accused anyone of being a gimmick.

The point that you do bring up, of course, is a very interesting one. Who really is to decide what is genuinely a cohesive incorporation of foreign elements and what is just a mishmash, copy/paste job? The only real answer is that it's almost entirely subjective to the listener, which makes the matter that much harder. I never assumed that a band doing something different (or "weird") must be doing it merely for the sake of being different. I do think that there are bands who do this, but I certainly have no stigma against bands doing something different. And when I used the term bastardization, I didn't mean it in a pejorative fashion.

I apologize then for that mistake.

I also understand that some bands do shit for shits sake, I'm a big believer that a band like uneXpect is one of these bands, yet since none of us know the band personally it can't be said for certain - which I agree with you completely on, the subjectivity of it all.

 

[unknown]

it was a good one too (the post black metal thread that is)