Black Metal.

[Έρεβος]

Seeing as art is subjective, as is greatness, that post is really full of nothing.

Art is only partially subjective. Someone slamming their head on a piano isn't art, fact. There is nothing subjective there, and someone saying that is art, seriously, is an utter moron. (It goes beyond that, but that is a very base example.)

Edit: Slipknot isn't art, fact.

 

[Mort Divine]

Hvis Lyset Tar Oss (why Filosofem?), Pure Holocaust, In the Nightside Eclipse, Transylvanian Hunger, The Celtic Winter, Blood Fire Death, Blood on Ice, etc. [imo] are peerless. Modern black metal doesn't come close, with the exception of some hybrid bands like Falkenbach, Agalloch, Woods of Ypres, etc.. The black metal genre is just about dead in terms of anything new, besides of course hybrids (mainly folk/doom/black). The only truly great black metal release I've seen recently is Wolves in the Throne Room's album.

What all albums of the ones I've mentioned have you heard? Heilig Vuur and Si Monumentum Requires, Circumspice at the very least are able to go above and beyond the typicalities of black metal quality and many people agree with me on.

 

[Mort Divine]

well it has something to do with why music sounds a certain way. If varg brought roses to church to give to christian ladies than his music would sound different.

Well obviously certain kinds of people are going to make certain kinds of music, but that doesn't mean the events influenced the music sounding like it did. Quorthon didn't burn down churches or kill anyone and his music managed to be better than most of the other hailed second wave bands.

 

[Teh Grimace]

i think you're missing out on the intent of early BM. as these new bands go beyond the old style, they almost always lose the simple elements that made more "traditional" stuff brilliant. short and sweet, if it "goes beyond" BM, it's not BM, as BM is a very simple, straightforward idea without much wiggle room.

 

[Mort Divine]

No, that is pretty much wrong. Black metal is a musical form, nothing else, no ideological nuances will change that.

Musically, going beyond the basics of BM is what makes so many modern bands as fantastic as they are. I love simplicity (otherwise I wouldn't hold Burzum in such high reguard) but I'll take the neoclassical beauty of Mystic Forest over the misanthropic darkness of Darkthrone and ilk.

 

[Έρεβος]

What all albums of the ones I've mentioned have you heard? Heilig Vuur and Si Monumentum Requires, Circumspice at the very least are able to go above and beyond the typicalities of black metal quality and many people agree with me on.

I do like (even love) Deathspell Omega, but I would disagree that they come close to any release by the likes of Burzum. But I haven't heard that album yet, so I'll certainly get it downloading now. As for Countess, I can't say I find them to be close to even Deathspell Omega, though still good.

 

[Teh Grimace]

BM is just goddamn not about "neoclassical beauty". in this corner, "neoclassical beauty". in the opposing corner, "black metal". let's get ready to rumble.

 

[Mort Divine]

SMRC is far beyond their previous works, it is a monolithic release in modern metal.

 

[Mort Divine]

BM is just goddamn not about "neoclassical beauty". in this corner, "neoclassical beauty". in the opposing corner, "black metal". let's get ready to rumble.

BM isn't about anything, it is a style of fucking music and if anyone (even you, who I generally find to have a more intelligent view on music than alot of people here) thinks it is something else then they are quite fucking wrong.

The events may add a cool image to the musicians but BM is NOT a fucking ideal.

 

[Έρεβος]

BM isn't about anything, it is a style of fucking music and if anyone (even you, who I generally find to have a more intelligent view on music than alot of people here) thinks it is something else then they are quite fucking wrong.

The events may add a cool image to the musicians but BM is NOT a fucking ideal.

For you, but for some it is more than just a music style. It's not wrong for it to be considered as just a music style, but don't say it is wrong to consider it more, either. (And even those that just consider it a music style should accept that the aspects of that music style do represent certain ideals, especially within the lyrics.)

 

[Teh Grimace]

proper BM, real BM, tr00 BM, is based ENTIRELY in the ideal. anything which is made in the name of this ideal is BM, and the ideal necessarily constricts the boundaries of what may be done in it's name. anything which is NOT, is, well, NOT. i'm not saying the "neoclassical beauty" bands are any less artistically worthwile. hell, they may be flat out musically superior. but they aren't really BM, much less better BM. that's my point.

if i made an improvisational jazz album and called it black metal, and everyone believed me and heralded it as "the next big evolution of black metal", and i wore corpsepaint and fucking everything, THAT WOULD NOT MAKE IT BLACK METAL.




..


sorry for yelling.

 

[Mort Divine]

proper BM, real BM, tr00 BM, is based ENTIRELY in the ideal. anything which is made in the name of this ideal is BM, and the ideal necessarily contricts the boundaries of what may be done in it's name. anything which is NOT, is, well, NOT. i'm not saying the "neoclassical beauty" bands are any less artistically worthwile. hell, they may be flat out musically superior. but they aren't really BM, much less better BM. that's my point.

if i made an improvisational jazz album and called it black metal, and everyone believed me and heralded it as "the next big evolution of black metal", and i wore corpsepaint and fucking everything, THAT WOULD NOT MAKE IT BLACK METAL.


..


sorry for yelling.

Well obviously the jazz album wouldn't be metal, but the thing is these modern bands have the core of black metal, they just add to the core. No one would argue with calling Summoning black metal, and they are so overrun with symphonic elements that often times they're barely even metal yet no one would even for a second doubt that they're black metal.

EDIT: Lets just go with a moogle on this one.

 

[Teh Grimace]

you can't really add to the core tho...


abstractly, the central theme necessary for "black metal" is that it's black... no matter what shape it's in or how big or small or whatever it is, it has to be black... so if you paint it purple, it's no longer black. seems simple to me... you could have a proper BM album that was drenched in neoclassical keyboards and wanky solos and harmonizing female vocals and yadda yadda... in theory. but in reality bands that use those things rarely (never) have any concept of what makes black metal BLACK... they're just metal...

 

[Mort Divine]

Then what of folk being added into BM (Satyricon did this and it is undeniable that they were bm) ? Folk isn't "black" it is more ... "green" or "yellow."

I disagree with you, but ... a moogle is right with how we should go about this.

 

[Έρεβος]

you can't really add to the core tho...


abstractly, the central theme necessary for "black metal" is that it's black... no matter what shape it's in or how big or small or whatever it is, it has to be black... so if you paint it purple, it's no longer black. seems simple to me... you could have a proper BM album that was drenched in neoclassical keyboards and wanky solos and harmonizing female vocals and yadda yadda... in theory. but in reality bands that use those things rarely (never) have any concept of what makes black metal BLACK... they're just metal...

It just depends on the musicians ability to integrate such without making it simple wankery, and staying true to the original primal, dark, truly artistic quality of black metal.

Wolves in the Throne Room's new album is one of the greatest [true] black metal works I've ever heard, and it integrates many "new-fangled" elements while staying true to what makes BM ... BM.

There have been many artists that have succeeded [to varying degrees], and many that have failed horribly and become nothing but wanking mockeries of BM (eg: Dimmu Borgir). Emperor did a good job with their newest albums, and remained true to BM (though their newer works certainly don't measure up to their older).

 

[Teh Grimace]

^^ but folk can be black... dammit i wish i could explain this better.


ok... it's not that some things are black and others aren't, and if BM features certain things then it's not tr00. BM, like i said, is based entirely in an ideal... in theory, i could make an "improvisational jazz" album done completely under the heading of "black metal" and it would be BM. listen to the Flying Luttenbachers. but most bands who make "experimental" or "progressive" or yadda yadda fucking yadda music don't understand what makes BM so unique. they judge TRUE black metal bands by the wrong standards, and so they apply the wrong standards to their own music and mistakenly think they can call it BM, when in reality they've already painted it purple.


simple blanket statement of absolute fact: if you do not consider early 2nd wave to be the best BM because it is nothing but BM, then you're listening to BM for the wrong reasons.

 

[cookiecutter]

Teh Grimace, what about bands which follow the ideal, yet play a different style of metal? Would you call them Black metal?

 

[Teh Grimace]

i think the "black" is more important than the "metal". i think early BM bands have more in common with early grind or industrial or ambient music than with other metal bands... BM wasn't the first style of music to have that aesthetic, but it was the archetype of it. but generally, IMHO, there's "black" "metal" and there's "other metal". i dunno. it's kind of fuzzy.

 

[Mort Divine]

simple blanket statement of absolute fact: if you do not consider early 2nd wave to be the best BM because it is nothing but BM, then you're listening to BM for the wrong reasons.

That is why I don't consider them to be the best, I just don't consider them the best because quite honestly I prefer the music of more modern bands (mind you the moderness doesn't mean shit, it is just the music that alot of the bands put out, because Bathory and Burzum I can very well see as justifyable for being "top class" BM bands) such as the ones I've mentioned so many times already.

 

[Teh Grimace]

...they're the best because they're the best at doing what black metal is about... like i said, they may not be the best at "metal", but they're the best at "black metal"...

....


how about... it's not minimalism that makes BM "true", it's the emotions that are conjured through minimalism. if you can think of another way to express that same emotion other than through minimalism, then it's still BM. and if you attempt minimalism but don't capture the right emotion, then it's not BM....


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...still pondering....