Do you consider Slipknot to be Metal?

[mutantllama]

Do you consider Slipknot to be Metal?

No.

 

[Ender Rises]

 

[Sabin Frost]

Then your entire argument falls through, too, then, doesn't it? Seeing as it's not normal for metal bands to play hard core riffs, I mean.

And you obviously don't know what the "spirit of metal" means, Mr. Herman. Slipknot is a jump da fuck up sorta band, with a fucking gimmick beaten to death to make it easier to fuck stupid teenage girls. Don't make me bring examples, boy!

No, fucking think, dont just read. I have been basing my argument on Slipknot not being like every other band.

I said,

"Most of the arguments against them are based on what is common"

Have you even watched Voliminal? The guys used to bring a dead crow in a jar on stage and smell it to make themselves puke and toss it around into the crowd. Clown pisses on stage, Sid used to go into the crowd and punch up people that wouldn't do what Corey said. Those masks are a huge gimmick, but the mindset the band have with them is they put them on they are different people, they take off their mask they go back to being the father and playing Grand Piano (in reference to clown) but when they are on and they are on tour they drink piss, they sleep with girls, they drive around in a big bus headbanging and blasting loud music, they are a pretty chaotic and debauched entity.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Dancing around? What the fuck. I just said they have a lot of influences, mostly metal.

And I'm asking you to expand upon this in detail, instead of repeating it over and over.

Slipknot are not undeniably metal, if they were there wouldn't be these arguments every four weeks. Most people however do agree so far that they are metal and as much as you want to fuss about it, if you ask most people whether or not they are metal on the street, they will say yes. Does it matter to them that some people believe they know better hence they are right? The majority of the metal community is divided on this, and if it fell to a vote, or you asked the band, the response would be it is metal.

Ad populum, not to mention defining the "metal community" for the purpose of such a poll would be difficult since you would probably want to include all the nu metal fans.

You are missing most of my argument in references to Slayer being heavily influenced by punk (which they were, check the reasons behind undisputed attitude) not effecting the outcome of the band.

I don't understand this sentence, please clarify/rephrase.

What I am trying to say is it is possible to create metal without starting off with metal, a jazz musician could come along and in experimenting create something that falls directly into the paramaters of metal without hearing any in the past, it is not impossible. Black Sabbath may have been credited with starting metal but a lot of metal bands did spring up afterwards with no link to Sabbath at all, not even hearing them in many cases.

For example?

I cannot be fucked continuing this argument, not because I dont care, but because you are going to retort with the same views over and over and it is going nowhere. Bitch about this all you want, I dont give a fuck, argue it with someone else, I have better things to do. Bands dont need to be primarily influenced by metal to fall into metal, if you disagree, fine, we will go our seperate ways. /contribution to thread

I'd be far more likely to see your side of the argument if you'd bother to explain the points you bring up.

I did read the whole thread, else I wouldn't have quoted something of every page in my first post in this thread. And alot of ppl wouldn't be so anti-slipknot if 13 year olds didn't listen to them, I'm quite sure of that.

[gives up]

He doesn't need to, you admitted it yourself right here:
Emphasis mine.
Begging the question. Who says metal needs to be the 'primary element'?

Or is this just your opinion?
Edit - You're not trying to pass off your opinion as fact, are you?

"Significant" being the operative word in my initial comment which you have ignored. And metal has to be the primary element for a band to be considered metal. Metal has to be metal. Metal=Metal. I don't see how this is a difficult concept.

So if you have a hard time telling which of these two tabs belonged to Darkthrone or The Exploited, their respective genres would be in question? Is that the reasoning of this thread so far?

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|---------------------------------9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-7-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9--
|---------------------------------9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-7-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9-9--
|-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6---7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-5-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7--
|-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-----------------------------------------------
                                                                              




-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
--9-9-9-9-9------------------------------------------------------------|
--9-9-9-9-9------------------------------------------------------------|
--7-7-7-7-7--7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-77-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6--|
-------------8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-88-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7--|

e|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
B|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
G|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
D|----------------------------555555555555555577777777-----------------------|
A|---4444442222222222---------333333333333333355555555-6-7-4444444444444444--|
E|---2222220000000000----------------------------------4-5-2222222222222222--|

I'd assume the first is Darkthrone and the second The Exploited, the obvious difference being the use of major third intervals in the first one which is far more typical of Darkthrone and black metal than of The Exploited and hardcore punk. Unless this is some kind of trick where you are misrepresenting the bands by picking atypical examples from each. If you don't play music and understand basic theory you might as well ignore my tab examples.

Have you even watched Voliminal? The guys used to bring a dead crow in a jar on stage and smell it to make themselves puke and toss it around into the crowd. Clown pisses on stage, Sid used to go into the crowd and punch up people that wouldn't do what Corey said. Those masks are a huge gimmick, but the mindset the band have with them is they put them on they are different people, they take off their mask they go back to being the father and playing Grand Piano (in reference to clown) but when they are on and they are on tour they drink piss, they sleep with girls, they drive around in a big bus headbanging and blasting loud music, they are a pretty chaotic and debauched entity.

And this says "metal" to you rather than "rock" or "punk" or whatever because...?

 

[Hatebreeder]

And I'm asking you to expand upon this in detail, instead of repeating it over and over.


Ad populum, not to mention defining the "metal community" for the purpose of such a poll would be difficult since you would probably want to include all the nu metal fans.


I don't understand this sentence, please clarify/rephrase.


For example?


I'd be far more likely to see your side of the argument if you'd bother to explain the points you bring up.


[gives up]


"Significant" being the operative word in my initial comment which you have ignored. And metal has to be the primary element for a band to be considered metal. Metal has to be metal. Metal=Metal. I don't see how this is a difficult concept.



I'd assume the first is Darkthrone and the second The Exploited, the obvious difference being the use of major third intervals in the first one which is far more typical of Darkthrone and black metal than of The Exploited and hardcore punk. Unless this is some kind of trick where you are misrepresenting the bands by picking atypical examples from each. If you don't play music and understand basic theory you might as well ignore my tab examples.


And this says "metal" to you rather than "rock" or "punk" or whatever because...?

Shut up.

 

[Cythraul]

He doesn't need to, you admitted it yourself right here:

So how exactly does admitting that a band employs traces of metal influence amount to admitting that said band is a metal band?

Begging the question. Who says metal needs to be the 'primary element'?

He wasn't begging the question. I see nowhere that he assumed anything that he was trying to prove. He just made a claim that you disagree with, but said claim seems pretty reasonable to me.

Or is this just your opinion?
Edit - You're not trying to pass off your opinion as fact, are you?

Uhhh, yeah. Isn't this what people typically do when they make claims about stuff?

 

[Sabin Frost]

Shut up.

QFT

I have been explaining myself, I have been giving plenty of examples.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I have been explaining myself, I have been giving plenty of examples.

You have yet to explain:
- how Morbid Angel is a recognizable influence on Slipknot
- how the metal influence on Slipknot is the primary influence on their music, or conversely how a band with something other than metal as their primary influence can be considered a metal band
- How the Slayer/punk influence tangent affects Slipknot
- How "a lot of metal bands did spring up afterwards with no link to Sabbath at all", listing some of these bands would be a start
- etc.

Really, what you have been mostly doing is repeating a number of premises and then giving up when someone questions them. Also, telling people who are trying to engage in a productive discussion with you and offering to sit there and listen while you explain your position in detail to "shut up" is a poor way to get your point across.

(Edited for a grammatical error)

 

[Base Delta Zero]

So how exactly does admitting that a band employs traces of metal influence amount to admitting that said band is a metal band?

He didn't say 'traces of metal influence.' He said 'they are a band combining hardcore/grindcore/industrial/alternative/hard rock/rapcore/metal/etc.'
So now the burden of proof is on him. Now he has to prove how he can subtract metal from hardcore/grindcore/industrial/alternative/hard rock/rapcore/metal. That would prove Slipknot isn't metal.

He wasn't begging the question. I see nowhere that he assumed anything that he was trying to prove. He just made a claim that you disagree with, but said claim seems pretty reasonable to me.

He's assuming that his definition of metal is fact when it is, thus far, relative.

And I didn't say I disagreed with him, only his delivery.

Uhhh, yeah. Isn't this what people typically do when they make claims about stuff?

This is a thread concerning opinion, not factual debate. I was basically asking him if he was using 'opinion' or 'facts'. And, honestly, if he said anything about all this simply being his opinion, I wouldn't have a fuckin' leg to stand on, really.

"Significant" being the operative word in my initial comment which you have ignored. And metal has to be the primary element for a band to be considered metal. Metal has to be metal. Metal=Metal. I don't see how this is a difficult concept.

'Metal=metal' makes perfect sense. What does not make sense is:
hardcore/grindcore/industrial/alternative/hard rock/rapcore/metal = 0metal

That is the flaw in your argument. Mathematically, it doesn't work. X+Y != 0Y.

 

[Ender Rises]

.

 

[Sabin Frost]

You have yet to explain:
- how Morbid Angel is a recognizable influence on Slipknot
- how the metal influence on Slipknot is the primary influence on their music, or conversely how a band with something other than metal as their primary influence can be considered a metal band
- How the Slayer/punk influence tangent affects Slipknot
- How "a lot of metal bands did spring up afterwards with no link to Sabbath at all", listing some of these bands would be a start
- etc.

Really, what you have been mostly doing is repeating a number of premises and then giving up when someone questions them. Also, telling people who are trying to engage in a productive discussion with you and offering to sit there and listen while you explain your position in detail to "shut up" is a poor way to get your point across.

(Edited for a grammatical error)

I wont quote tabs on Morbid Angel as it is heavily diluted and I would need to waste more time on this stupid fucking thread to find it. The band have stated in interviews many names of metal badns that lead them to playing their certain style of music, aiming for certain sounds, effects, getting into music and Morbid Angel was one I remembered. The band consider themselves metal.

I explained this and if you fail to get it you are a fucking idiot and I rarely resort to name calling. I do not believe Metal needs to be somethings primary influence for something to be metal. Like what I said about the Jazz musician, it was hypothetical. Interviews prove that metal was the bands biggest influence starting out, in the early days they played something less experimental and undeniably metal, it was then expanded upon and changed. This however is irrelevant, as something does not need to be influenced by metal to be metal, bands whos influence isn't metal can easily be metal simply by playing it, Metal is not completely objective, it is possible for me to pick up an instrument, never hearing metal, and make something that falls into the category of metal. That was not the case with Slipknot but the argument that you need to plagurise metal bands to be metal is utterly stupid and I have no idea how you can fucking argue it as along with influence comes something called originallity.

That reference was to support my claim about how Metal doesn't need to spawn from metal, it can spawn from other things yet take the form of metal.

There were shit loads, you want me to find every last band that has never heard Black Sabbath? Doom is my main love, so here is a quote for you,

"A number of early Black Sabbath tracks, such as "Black Sabbath" are often considered embryonic or prototypical doom metal songs. Many of the tracks on their third album Master of Reality (released in 1971) seem to have more in common with what today is seen as doom metal, with tracks such as "Sweet Leaf", and "Into The Void" that featured Tony Iommi's guitar and Geezer Butler's bass tuned down to C# for heavier riffing and reduced string tension for Iommi's previously injured fingers. However Black Sabbath was not the only influence- many doom metal bands started up only a few years after Black Sabbath's debut, some of whom hailed from countries that had not yet seen the rise of Black Sabbath's popularity."

To give you the names you oh so desire for whatever fucking reason I am bothering, Pentagram was one example from America. Other bands include the likes of Trouble, Saint Vitus, Candlemass and Pentagram. While a lot of bands like Witchfinder General were influenced by Black Sabbath, others were not.

Yet going on about this is pointless, as to bring your whole argument crumbling down is to point out that Metal came from somewhere that was not metal, it came from Rock, and many of the early metal bands played what could be called rock music. Rock came from the blues. There is such a thing as originality. One could claim the biggest influence behind hardcore was soft-rock, in that it was because of soft rock that a lot of hardcore started. Many artists believed rock had lost its balls and the made the music louder, faster and with harder bass and screamed vocals to make it less mainstream, addressing government, war, capitalism etc. as opposed to singing about dreamy summer days. Bad Brains, one of the big three responsible for hardcore were influenced by Sabbath, the Sex pistols and had backgrounds in soul, funk and jazz to further re-itterate an earlier point. I myself am looking into starting a doom metal band and metal is my real passion but I am a brass musician, I currently play, blues, classical, jazz and big band music. By your logic I shouldn't like metal or play metal as my musical roots are not metal, just my passion.

Kill this thread.

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

Shut the fuck up.

They could be classified as country music. they can be classified as anything. They still suck.

 

[Cythraul]

He didn't say 'traces of metal influence.' He said 'they are a band combining hardcore/grindcore/industrial/alternative/hard rock/rapcore/metal/etc.'
So now the burden of proof is on him. Now he has to prove how he can subtract metal from hardcore/grindcore/industrial/alternative/hard rock/rapcore/metal. That would prove Slipknot isn't metal.

You're confused. Just because a band has some metal influences, that does not make them a metal band. If I threw some black metal vocals over a country song, that would not make it a black metal song.

He's assuming that his definition of metal is fact when it is, thus far, relative.

You don't know what begging the question is, do you? Look it up. And what the hell do you mean when you say his definition of metal is relative? Relative to what? He's putting forth a position that is either true or false. Obviously he believes it to be true, and that is why he is putting it forth as fact. That's what people do in a debate. So far I do not see how you've refuted this guy's view by calling it 'relative'.

This is a thread concerning opinion, not factual debate. I was basically asking him if he was using 'opinion' or 'facts'. And, honestly, if he said anything about all this simply being his opinion, I wouldn't have a fuckin' leg to stand on, really.

I really do not know what the fucking hell you are talking about at this point. What is with you and this 'opinion' concept? Define 'opinion' for me so I can know what the hell you're talking about. Of course it's his opinion! Yeah, he takes a certain proposition to be true! Maybe he has good reasons to do so. Maybe the proposition is true! So anyway, what the fuck is your point?

 

[Dee Snarl]

To give you the names you oh so desire for whatever fucking reason I am bothering, Pentagram was one example from America. Other bands include the likes of Trouble, Saint Vitus, Candlemass and Pentagram.

So you're saying these bands weren't influenced by Black Sabbath??

 

[Personified Hatred]

Yeah, Spliknot is fucking kvlt.

I agree. And Black Sabbath is not. I, myself, say that

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Bye thread.