DragonForce and Trivium in Terrorizer - a few things worthy of discussion

[General Zod]

I could be wrong, but doesn't Zod actually think Old Man's Child is good black metal?

I like Old Man's Child latest CD. I wouldn't call their music Black Metal. I'd say it's a hybrid of Power Metal and Black Metal.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

...but comparing a band like judas priest, who helped popularize an image they created, and a band like trivium, who try to cop "underground" respectability by associating themselves with well-respected bands, is a poor comparison.

I'm not comparing them musically... obviously. I'm merely pointing out that Priest's image was contrived.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

Yeah, and he doesn't like Bathory.

Thanks. I appreciate you trying to defend my musical tastes.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

Are you saying that...

E: None of the Above. That said, I appreciate you trying to construct a straw man arguement, that I'd forced to defend it.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

Take out the hardcore vocals and they'd be Shadows Fall.

Shadows Fall blows.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

Motley Crue rules.

Agreed.

Zod

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

6 in a row. cut it out.

 

[General Zod]

Take out the hardcore vocals and I *possibly* could dig them...

Ironically, replace the word "hardcore" with "Death", and you can find this exact sentiment being expressed about Opeth, almost hourly on any of the Prog boards.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

6 in a row. cut it out.

Too much work. Plus, I was trying to break a long standing RC record.

Zod

 

[Dark One]

Ironically, replace the word "hardcore" with "Death", and you can find this exact sentiment being expressed about Opeth, almost hourly on any of the Prog boards.

Agreed. And yet even more ironically, you can replace the words "Warrel Dane" with "another vocalist" and you can find this exact sentiment expressed about Nevermore on Power boards as well.

 

[General Zod]

Agreed. And yet even more ironically, you can replace the words "Warrel Dane" with "another vocalist" and you can find this exact sentiment expressed about Nevermore on Power boards as well.

Blaspheemer.

Zod

 

[Dark One]

Blaspheemer.

Zod

I wouldn't be metal if I wasn't.

 

[General Zod]

I'd like someone to explain to me, in musical terms, what they view as the primary differences between a Death vocal, ala Mikael Stanne, and a Hardcore vocal, ala Matt of Trivium. Now, first off, I'm NOT trying to compare the quality of their vocals. I'm NOT trying to compare the quality of the music. And finally, I'm NOT intimating that I don't hear a difference. What I'm asking is, musically, what do you view as the ENORMOUS difference between the two? To the uninitiated, the differences are negligible. Both are clearly aggressive, both defy traditional vocal techniques, and both favor brutality over melody. However, one is embraced, while the other is castigated and shunned. This seems strange to me.

I recognize that traditionally, Hardcore vocals had been paired with Hardcore music, which we can all agree is shit. However, there are plenty of examples of Metal borrowing from genres which aren't typically appreciated by Metal fans. Most (not all) Metal fans don't listen to Classical or Symphonic music. Yet many Metal fans celebrate these elements when interwoven with Metal. Most (not all) Metal fans don't listen to Opera. Yet Metal bands who leverage operatic vocals are some of the most popular in Metal. So why this specially reserved disdain for pairing Hardcore vocals with Metal music? At best, it seems absurdly picky.

Zod

 

[Erik]

i think it's just that hardcore vocals are associated with a sort of dumbfuck mindless aggression (big dude just randomly yelling into a mic about how he hates things and about how things should die) that doesn't really fit with metal, which is usually more sophisticated and thoughtful in its aggression & has more intelligence & flair than punk music.

 

[Dark One]

I'm not an expert whatsoever, so I can only respond in generalities here.

First, let me say that without applying labels to anything, and all else being equal, I'm simply not a fan of Matt's vocals, period. From a taste standpoint, they do nothing for me.

Now, that said, I do think that there is a distinguishible hardcore *pitch* to the vocal style he employs. Difficult to put into words, but I do think it's relatively easy to pinpoint them if I heard them. I also think you can say that the Lamb of God singer utilizes a hardcore style in his vocal approach - I just happen to like him as a singer better.

So without being able to precisely describe the pitch of hardcore vocals, I can say that I don't dismiss Trivium's singer because he employs that style, I dismiss him because I simply don't like his voice. I don't *want* to not like his voice, I simply can't help it.

 

[General Zod]

i think it's just that hardcore vocals are associated with a sort of dumbfuck mindless aggression...

Couldn't agree more. And that is my point. If you use Hardcore vocals, you're immediately associated with an element or a group that we don't want in our little Metal click. And that's shortsighted. If someone comes along and puts a Hardcore vocal over really good music, we shouldn't ignore it or disregard it, just because of who else might enjoy it.

Zod

 

[Dark One]

If you use Hardcore vocals, you're immediately associated with an element or a group that we don't want in our little Metal click. And that's shortsighted.

Totally agree on that point - and unfortunately that attitude is prevalent everywhere in society. Rampant racism, politically motivated groups, religious groups, and so on and so on.

In every instance, having a narrow minded view based on peer pressure or based on a label is, as you say, shortsighted and just wrong. Form an opinion based on what opinions are, not based on what others think they should be.

 

[Nate The Great]

ZOD: If I have to take NON-STOP crap about almost every band I mention being hardcore, I think it's only appropriate that you should take endless criticism of liking Trivium.

Oh . . . and Shadows Fall KILLS Trivium. That was so 14-year-old of you to say otherwise.

Another point . . . if you're going to listen to a band that plays "metal" but sings hardcore, please do us a favor and start somewhere toward the beginning. Liking Trivium is like saying you like black metal because you just heard Dimmu Borgir's latest. An excellent place to start would be Earth Crisis. They knew what the word was on awesome riffs, plus their vocals were fuckin' excellent.

 

[Erik]

Couldn't agree more. And that is my point. If you use Hardcore vocals, you're immediately associated with an element or a group that we don't want in our little Metal click. And that's shortsighted. If someone comes along and puts a Hardcore vocal over really good music, we shouldn't ignore it or disregard it, just because of who else might enjoy it.

i ignore it because it sounds like fucking shit to me, what's so strange about that

just like i ignore bands with "opera" vocals

 

[Dark One]

just like i ignore bands with "opera" vocals

Right, but is it possible for you to like a band that uses "opera" style vocals?