Faggoth?

[no country for old wainds]

but I can assure you that I know of many so called "true" black metal bands. I can just refer to Guardian Of Darkness' "Essential Black Metal Album" list

Hehe. Well if you're looking for 'raw, grim, evil black metal' you won't find too much of it in my list, really. A few of the albums I listed aren't even black metal. Depends on your definition of 'true' though.

 

[R.I.P.2]

so by your logic if Linkin Park embraced the "True" Black Metal ideology but still kept churning out their pathetic excuse for music, it would be black metal?

No, it would be norsecore.

 

[Black Winter Day]

Tell that to Erik.

Edit: Ah, forget it, I'll probably just receive an answer filled to the brim with sarky comments about how much I suck and that BM's ideology is so much more than anti-Christianity etc etc. It still seems to me that you contradict each other, though.

tell me where he said "all music that is anti-christian is black metal."
please don't bother to respond until you can offer some actual reasoning to back up your view.

 

[Henrik Main]

tell me where he said "all music that is anti-christian is black metal."
please don't bother to respond until you can offer some actual reasoning to back up your view.

(It seems to me that all persons with great knowledge of black metal are sarcastic and have a "holier than thou"-attitude. Also, they seem to be very easy to piss off. Curious. It must have something to do with them being tired of having to deal with lesser human beings as myself.)

Erik said that the only way to find out whether a band is BM or not is to look at the ideology. This is a fair view, something I will not disagree with. Then you come riding in, saying that Erik is spot on with his comment. Again, fair enough. Then I ask, without any hostility, (because I know if I tried to be sarky/funny/whatever, I'll never get a reasonable answer) why Old Man's Child aren't black metal, even though they are anti-Christian. Then you say that OMC aren't black metal because of their music. I guess I've failed to grasp the logic of what you're saying, because first you claim that ideology is the only thing that defines a black metal band, then you claim that OMC aren't BM because of their style of music.

This is where the problem lies. Is black metal ideology anti-Christian ideology, illustrated by using highly blasphemic and "unholy" lyrics? I thought so. You seem to have a different view. As stated in my previous post, I am pretty aware of the fact that my definition of black metal ideology is wrong. Please enlighten me. I'll respect your opinions even more if you refrained from childish insults, thank you.

With no hostility intended,

Henrik.

 

[Black Winter Day]

"(It seems to me that all persons with great knowledge of black metal are sarcastic and have a "holier than thou"-attitude. Also, they seem to be very easy to piss off. Curious. It must have something to do with them being tired of having to deal with lesser human beings as myself.)"

if i seem holier-than thou, it is only because i feel (know) that i am right. and since when was i "pissed off"? i am more annoyed that people who know nothing about a subject (black metal) are trying to re-define it.



"(because I know if I tried to be sarky/funny/whatever, I'll never get a reasonable answer)"

and you are saying that i am holier-than-thou? try not to be as hypocritical in your next response. and, out of curiosity... what is "sarky"?



"why Old Man's Child aren't black metal, even though they are anti-Christian. Then you say that OMC aren't black metal because of their music. I guess I've failed to grasp the logic of what you're saying, because first you claim that ideology is the only thing that defines a black metal band, then you claim that OMC aren't BM because of their style of music."

how long is it going to take you to grasp this??? it first has to be black metal STYLE in order to be considered black metal!!!! this style, coupled with the idealology, makes it what it is! what is so hard?

black metal style + ideaology = black metal

a band can have black metal ideaology and not be black metal (i.e. dark funeral and old man's child... and slayer and elend and possessed, etc.). vise versa, a band can "sound" black metal, but not contain the ideaology.


"This is where the problem lies. Is black metal ideology anti-Christian ideology, illustrated by using highly blasphemic and "unholy" lyrics? I thought so. You seem to have a different view. As stated in my previous post, I am pretty aware of the fact that my definition of black metal ideology is wrong. Please enlighten me. I'll respect your opinions even more if you refrained from childish insults, thank you."

first of all... what childish insults?!? your last sentence here is very typical... it is a phrase to make you sound civil and level-headed (and me the otherwise), but if you look back at my posts you will see that you just made it up. i haven't insulted you, only refuted your opinion.

black metal ideaology = anti-christian (not necessarily "blasphemic"), naturalistic, sometimes paganistic, sometimes nihilist... not dumb shit like "jesus is a cunt", "satan r00ls"... i'm sure erik can explain it better, but if you haven't got it by now in this thread, you likely never will. not being an asshole, just saying...

 

[Henrik Main]

You didn't exactly insult me, but you did insult Anonymous in some other post. Sorry. It's just that too many of your "kin" (not to generalize, but I'm sure you know that a lot of the people with great knowledge about BM on this here board aren't the friendliest of people at times). Same goes for the "pissed off" thing and the "If I try to be funny, I wouldn't get a polite answer". I did exaggerate, but oh well. Just prejudice against what I look upon as the self proclaimed musical elite (and sure, some of you have lots of knowledge, it's just that I've had bad encounters with "elitists" before. Not claiming you are one of them, just mentioning it.) Sarky = sarcastic.

I am satisfied with the explanation you gave me. It's just that I was merely being pedantic, because Erik did mention fuck all about music, he just talked about ideology. I thus reacted when you also claimed that the music played an integral part, even though you still agreed with Erik in the first place. Of course, I know that the music is extremely important, and that's why I found it strange when Erik said the following:

"it is about IDEOLOGY. IDEOLOGY, NOT MUSIC. COMPREHEND OR SHUT THE FUCK UP."

I won't go any further, because I don't think I'll challenge Erik to a debate - I know my knowledge is too limited Thanks for clearing it up, though.

 

[J.]

Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's Child, Cradle of Filth; black metal? hahaha

To me, they seem more along the lines of pseudo goth metal. But like someone said, I just call them crap. I've never heard the term "faggoth", though.

Why should people care so much about the ideology that they lose the focus that the music is pants? I don't mean to offend those that like the raw coldness of it all, but it's gonna get old. And those Bible-burning, Jew-hating, "National Socialists" will grow up eventually.

You blatantly contradicted yourself here. You clearly insult the NS ideology (I disagree myself) while at the same time saying that people should forego ideology and just concentrate on the music. So do you listen to NSBM or not? And if not, I certainly hope it's because you're too busy listening to the bubble gum metal like Dimmu and OMC, and not because you disagree with the ideology.

A lot of NSBM bands are worthy of attention, and easily wipe the floor with the "melodic symphonic black metal" (dumbest term ever) bands. Kristallnacht and Gontyna Kry instantly come to mind.

Then again, we can always just hope that catfish eats you.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Then again, we can always just hope that catfish eats you.

That was funny.

I really doubt that all this tension arises from us not understanding the concept of black metal. I think it comes from the fact that it's stupid. I'll reiterate: It's stupid. It's stupider(dumber, whatever) than the statement that hip-hop isn't a style of music--it's a culture, a mindset. No. It's music. As is black metal. And if that's not the way it is...it's the way it should and will be.

I'm not trying to be offensive or make waves. It's just surprising that this style is so full of itself and rooted in its own "ideology" that its fans have become 'holier-than-thou' and the style has stagnated to the point that any deviation calls for a new genre moniker just to retain the purity of the core music.

I get that it's IDEOLOGY, NOT MUSIC and all that. I'm just saying that that is silly and should change, in all seriousness. Black metal is not my favorite kind of music. I believe in a mixture of naturalism and technology, capitalism and democracy, and in surrendering to God. This does not stop me from liking the music, and I am not deterred. I listen to thrash and progressive and industrial so I should care less. It's this painful double standard and foolish elitism that needs to die out. There was nothing humorous in my intended post. The mindset needs to change.

 

[Black Winter Day]

Laaaaaaa-dy, when you're with me I'm smiling
Give me all your love
Your hands build me up when I'm sinking
Touch me and my troubles all fade
Lady, from the moment I saw you
Standing all alone
You gave all the love that I needed
So shy, like a child who has grown

'Cause you're my laaaaaa-dy of the morning
Love shines in your eyes
Sparkling, clear, and lovely
You're my laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-dy...

 

[anonymousnick2001]

You're blazed, aren't you?

 

[Varulv]

Raw black metal > symphonic black metal

 

[The Maelstrom Mephisto]

the whole thing i don't understand about the whole "true" black metal thing is that even though all these bands (Dimmu, COF, OMC, etc) embrace the anti-christian, nihilistic ideology (which seems to be a bit of a buzz-word these days) and also make music that is derived from early black metal, albeit more mlodic and making use of orchestras and synth, black metal elitists even refuse to acknowledge that they are even remotely black metal.

I don't get annoyed that these people don't like the music that these bands produce, i get annoyed that these people won't even acknowledge that, while their sound is unike raw, traditional black metal, their musical roots still lie in black metal and their music still has a black metal sound.

These bands aren't trying to redefine the genre, they are merely taking it in a new direction. As far as i can see, traditional black metal has become relatively stagnant in terms of new sounds and experimentation because these bands seem intent on being true and necro, sometimes to the point of being a complete cacophony of sound. I have no problems with Dimmu Borgir or COF being set out of the traditional black metal circle as they are obviously not a traditional black metal band, but they do have a sound derived from balck metal, therefore i think that if you have to pigeonhole them into a genre, it would be "Syumphonic Black Metal" because that is exactly what they are.

theres my two cents

 

[ThePhilosopher]

Well all I know is, there's nothing even close to black metal in Dimmu Borgir's "Death cult armageddon".

 

[J.]

You people crack me up. You claim bands like Darkthrone and the other "true" bands do nothing to advance black metal. It was never intended to progress. Hell, I don't even like the stuff, yet I understand this. Emperor knew this, which is why they pretty much abandoned the "true" aesthetic with Equilibrium, which is not black metal, and neither is Prometheus.

And how can you claim CoF and Dimmu are helping advance black metal when neither band have done anything remotely significant since the early to mid 90's?

But like anonymousnick said, this debate will go nowhere, so just ignore.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

People who obsess over genres are probably listening to music for the wrong reasons, thats why I'm extreemly casual with genres. Is Dimmu Borgir black metal? Yes. Is Dissection black metal? Yes. Is Enslaved black metal? Yes. Are you a pitiful human being if you cry cuz I say this? Yes.

 

[Flaming Death]

listen to music.

 

[LordFireworm]

Goddamn, this is a boring arguement.
Who wants to go look at some titties?

 

[anonymousnick2001]

the whole thing i don't understand about the whole "true" black metal thing is that even though all these bands (Dimmu, COF, OMC, etc) embrace the anti-christian, nihilistic ideology (which seems to be a bit of a buzz-word these days) and also make music that is derived from early black metal, albeit more mlodic and making use of orchestras and synth, black metal elitists even refuse to acknowledge that they are even remotely black metal.

I don't get annoyed that these people don't like the music that these bands produce, i get annoyed that these people won't even acknowledge that, while their sound is unike raw, traditional black metal, their musical roots still lie in black metal and their music still has a black metal sound.

These bands aren't trying to redefine the genre, they are merely taking it in a new direction. As far as i can see, traditional black metal has become relatively stagnant in terms of new sounds and experimentation because these bands seem intent on being true and necro, sometimes to the point of being a complete cacophony of sound. I have no problems with Dimmu Borgir or COF being set out of the traditional black metal circle as they are obviously not a traditional black metal band, but they do have a sound derived from balck metal, therefore i think that if you have to pigeonhole them into a genre, it would be "Syumphonic Black Metal" because that is exactly what they are.

theres my two cents

Excellent post.

Well all I know is, there's nothing even close to black metal in Dimmu Borgir's "Death cult armageddon".

There's still a few elements, but I can see how someone could say this.

And how can you claim CoF and Dimmu are helping advance black metal when neither band have done anything remotely significant since the early to mid 90's?

Their last two albums have utilized orchestras to expand their sound. By the next album, this will probably have been seamlessly integrated to the point that true innovation can begin taking place.

But like anonymousnick said, this debate will go nowhere, so just ignore.

That is the sad part, isn't it?

People who obsess over genres are probably listening to music for the wrong reasons, thats why I'm extreemly casual with genres. Is Dimmu Borgir black metal? Yes. Is Dissection black metal? Yes. Is Enslaved black metal? Yes. Are you a pitiful human being if you cry cuz I say this? Yes.

No argument there. That's how it should be.

listen to music.

Amen, brutha.

 

[The Maelstrom Mephisto]

And how can you claim CoF and Dimmu are helping advance black metal when neither band have done anything remotely significant since the early to mid 90's?

But like anonymousnick said, this debate will go nowhere, so just ignore.

i never said that they are advancing the genre as such, just experiment and taking it in a new direction.

 

[no country for old wainds]

You people crack me up. You claim bands like Darkthrone and the other "true" bands do nothing to advance black metal. It was never intended to progress. Hell, I don't even like the stuff, yet I understand this. Emperor knew this, which is why they pretty much abandoned the "true" aesthetic with Equilibrium, which is not black metal, and neither is Prometheus.

Of course BM is supposed to progress, otherwise you just get hundreds of derivative Darkthrone clones and no new and innovative ideas are explored. Emperor more likely abandoned the genre because they realised that they don't have the talent needed to contribute anything else worthwhile.