Is it just me or does a large majority of black metal suck?

[HamburgerBoy]

War metal is a tiny proportion of black metal, I didn't mention it simply because it wasn't significant, and because it doesn't help your point any; dumb war metal caveman riffs are largely trash.

Again, name examples of black/thrash bands you're referring to. I'm fine with Destroyer 666 being counted as black metal since they share a significant number of traits with black metal. I'm not fine with Vektor, Skeletonwitch, Nocturnal Breed, and other one-drop-rule bands counting and you're being disingenuous as fuck if you think some random retard declaring a band with 95% thrash metal riffs as black metal qualifies them.

 

[CiG]

Most black/thrash bands are fairly samey so it would be less exhaustive for you to give me examples of black/thrash bands that don't count. And since you're the one doing the disqualifying, the onus is on you.

Edit: also I'd be willing to bet that black/death makes up as big a % of black metal as atmos or DSBM does. Fucking kidding me faggot? DSBM is a tiny subgenre yet it's basically the crux of your dogshit-tier argument that Liturgy has better riffs than most black metal.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Most black/thrash bands are fairly samey so it would be less exhaustive for you to give me examples of black/thrash bands that don't count. And since you're the one doing the disqualifying, the onus is on you.

Edit: also I'd be willing to bet that black/death makes up as big a % of black metal as atmos or DSBM does. Fucking kidding me faggot? DSBM is a tiny subgenre yet it's basically the crux of your dogshit-tier argument that Liturgy has better riffs than most black metal.

I just gave you three. Now name me some that you believe do count.

Black/death is similarly nebulous. Per RYM/Sonemic, there are 22 pages of black/death albums and 25+ (pegged out) pages of DSBM albums, so DSBM wins in quantity. We can assume that all DSBM albums are black metal, but we can't make that same assumption about black/death bands.

 

[CiG]

I just gave you three. Now name me some that you believe do count.

Witchaven, Sabbat, Nifelheim. Also I'm assuming you disqualify the whole first wave black metal thing?

Black/death is similarly nebulous. Per RYM/Sonemic, there are 22 pages of black/death albums and 25+ (pegged out) pages of DSBM albums, so DSBM wins in quantity.

Didn't know there was even a search option for black/death on RYM. If I were to try and measure out the % of black metal I'd use MA anyway, RYM is missing tons and tons of bands and releases.

We can assume that all DSBM albums are black metal, but we can't make that same assumption about black/death bands.

Why? This is going purely by your definition of what is or isn't black metal. In mine, black/death (aka war metal) bands count as black metal.

Edit: now give me like 10 black/thrash bands that don't count as black metal. If you can't even name 10 that's pretty sad since a big part of your argument relies on that whole subgenre not counting as black metal.

 

[CiG]

The B/TQ.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The first Witchaven song on YouTube is borderline. The thrashy parts are pure thrash, but the blacky parts are pretty black. I think I've heard at least one of their albums in full at one point and I remember that being the case overall. Poor-ass riffs regardless. Sabbat is an extremely borderline band overall; I'm sure they have some stuff that counts, but most of their good riffs are going to be thrash or trad/speed metal riffs. The first Nifelheim song on YouTube sounds more like blackened Motorhead than black/thrash, with a Rattlehead riff in the middle. The one black metal riff within the song was better than Liturgy's, though. The first-wave was composed of maybe 30 bands so whether or not you count those particular ones, whatever, a drop in the bucket.

M-A is garbage for this kind of analysis since you can't differentiate on a per-album basis. It would count Transylvanian Hunger as death metal and Kill Em All as alternative rock. It's also far less reliable since there is no consensus-based genre-voting.

I never said the whole subgenre didn't count you dumb abo. I simply said that for DSBM, the rubric is clear. For black/death and black/death, it is questionable, even if the extent of questionability is ambiguous. I don't listen to much black/thrash but from what I've heard, the following all possess far more thrash than black:

Vektor
Skeletonwitch
Toxic Holocaust
Nocturnal Breed
Witchery
Abigail
Deathammer
Condor
Nocturnal

I can't be bothered thinking of a tenth. I don't need to know the entire population of the sub-genre, I only need a large enough sample size to approximate the relative proportions of thrash-heavy and black-heavy black/thrash bands.

 

[CiG]

Why is black metal not allowed to be thrashy though? You just aren't explaining your core concept here. Where did this idea come from that in order for a band to be a black metal band, it can only have a certain % of thrash metal riffs?

Also I wouldn't call Deathhammer a black/thrash band to begin with, same with Skeletonwitch or Vektor.

So you can't even name 10 and 3 of the bands you did name don't even count. Will you ever just admit that your opinion here is ill-thought out or simply wrong?

• DSBM is a small subgenre within black metal, yet it's the crux of your argument.
• Black/thrash doesn't count as black metal because thrash riffs.
• Symphonic/folk/atmos black metal has qualities that should by your logic disqualify it but because they mostly have shitty/no riffs you'll include them to buttress your argument.
• Black/death/war metal mostly counts but gross numbers can't be relied upon because you can't trust that they're proper black metal (whatever that even means).

 

[CiG]

Anyway, I'd rather listen to a million Blasphemy clone-riffs than one millisecond of Liturgy.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Why is black metal not allowed to be thrashy though? You just aren't explaining your core concept here. Where did this idea come from that in order for a band to be a black metal band, it can only have a certain % of thrash metal riffs?

Also I wouldn't call Deathhammer a black/thrash band to begin with, same with Skeletonwitch or Vektor.

So you can't even name 10 and 3 of the bands you did name don't even count. Will you ever just admit that your opinion here is ill-thought out or simply wrong?

• DSBM is a small subgenre within black metal, yet it's the crux of your argument.
• Black/thrash doesn't count as black metal because thrash riffs.
• Symphonic/folk/atmos black metal has qualities that should by your logic disqualify it but because they mostly have shitty/no riffs you'll include them to buttress your argument.
• Black/death/war metal mostly counts but gross numbers can't be relied upon because you can't trust that they're proper black metal (whatever that even means).

Because this is an argument about riffs. A black metal band with only thrash metal riffs is not a good defense of black metal riffs. I've said this many times now you dumbfuck, while you repeat that one claim and dodge my answers to all of your other questions.

All the bands I named have albums tagged as black/thrash. Again, # of bands means little as long as it's a decent sample size. That's 9 bands that don't count, with just a couple I could name that do count (e.g. Destroyer 666). DSBM is not a small sub-genre, as I already demonstrated using RYM's charts, you lying fuck. The metal riffs that symphonic/folk/atmos bands DO contain are black metal riffs, that's why they count. The fact that they may have the occasional non-metal song or interlude isn't being factored into my analysis. I'm the one providing the gross numbers you dishonest abo cunt, as I said DSBM outnumbers black/death. In fact, it outnumbers black/death and black/thrash combined per RYM/Sonemic, you stupid lying alcoholic shitbag.

 

[CiG]

A black metal band with only thrash metal riffs is not a good defense of black metal riffs.

Yes it is, it's a perfectly fine defense of black metal riffs if there is a gigantic subgenre within black metal that has thrash and thrash-esque riffs, because therefore those riffs = black metal riffs.

've said this many times now you dumbfuck, while you repeat that one claim and dodge my answers to all of your other questions.

Keep saying it for all I care you autistic muppet, you're completely picking and choosing when something is or isn't black metal as it suits your argument. It's a load of circular self-fulfilling horseshit to disqualify all the bands that threaten your shitty pointless contrarian position mate.

The metal riffs that symphonic/folk/atmos bands DO contain are black metal riffs, that's why they count.

How do you define a "black metal riff" though? This is the kind of shit you pepper through your posts and try to fly under the radar. You do it as if the definitions are chiseled in stone somewhere and we're all familiar with it, then when pressed we find out that your interpretation of such things aren't commonly known or agreed upon.

I'm the one providing the gross numbers you dishonest abo cunt, as I said DSBM outnumbers black/death.

You're providing your random ass made up % and extrapolating from there you aryan victim of child molestation. You provided numbers on RYM's listings on DSBM vs black/death even though there is no way to do a search for black/death on RYM as far as I know. Elaborate, how did you do it?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Riffs played by a black metal band =/= black metal riffs. By this logic, Beat It and Like a Virgin (two songs Watchtower has covered) are built on tech-thrash riffs.

A black metal riff is a riff within the common style established by the major black metal bands. Riffs that predate black metal, e.g. riffs established by the major thrash metal riffs, are not black metal riffs. Not that complicated.

https://sonemic.com/charts/

 

[CiG]

Riffs played by a black metal band =/= black metal riffs. By this logic, Beat It and Like a Virgin (two songs Watchtower has covered) are built on tech-thrash riffs.

How is it possible for someone as intelligent as you to say something this fucking retarded?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

How is it possible for someone as intelligent as you to say something this fucking retarded?

Because I'm using your retarded argument.

 

[CiG]

No you're not you spastic. You're comparing a one off cover song to a band using thrashy riffs over a decade of existence or more. Black/thrash bands have been incorporating thrashy riffs into black metal since the 1980's, that's not even close to being the same as covering a random song one time for the lulz.

 

[SlowDeathHooks]

sometimes "noise" is art ...

 

[HamburgerBoy]

No you're not you spastic. You're comparing a one off cover song to a band using thrashy riffs over a decade of existence or more. Black/thrash bands have been incorporating thrashy riffs into black metal since the 1980's, that's not even close to being the same as covering a random song one time for the lulz.

OK so when Wrathchild America plays a blues riff or Mordred plays a funk riff, those are actually thrash metal riffs.

When second-wave bands use thrash metal riffs, they make up a minor component. Basically every metal band has at least some thrash riffs, including many which predate the establishment of thrash itself. Mayhem including a Coroner riff on DMDS is not the same thing as Aura Noir including 30 different thrash riffs in direct tribute to their respective bands.

 

[CiG]

OK so when Wrathchild America plays a blues riff or Mordred plays a funk riff, those are actually thrash metal riffs.

Are you saying when Mordred plays a funk riff, they're no longer a thrash band? Are you saying if Mordred kept everything heavy but started playing 90% funk riffs they'd still just be a thrash band?

Because I'm saying a genre which incorporates thrash riffs into an overall black metal package is a *subgenre of black metal, not that one anomalous, one-off element changes a band's entire genre.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Are you saying when Mordred plays a funk riff, they're no longer a thrash band? Are you saying if Mordred kept everything heavy but started playing 90% funk riffs they'd still just be a thrash band?

Because I'm saying a genre which incorporates thrash riffs into an overall black metal package is a *subgenre of black metal, not that one anomalous, one-off element changes a band's entire genre.

No, I'm saying the exact opposite, which has been my argument from the start you retard.

Majority thrash, some black = thrash
Majority black, some thrash = black

 

[CiG]

This is based on your idea that riffs = everything though.

Once again, you're arguing based on your own standards and assumptions while trying to make points about things that might not be objectively defined but are usually based on common agreement. Common agreement tends to land on my side, in that black/thrash is a commonly accepted label which implies in its very name a relation to black metal.

I'm saying that black/thrash bands have consistently used thrash riffs to craft their own brand of black metal, you're countering it by talking about cover songs. You're not going by my logic you brainlet, because my logic isn't about random anomalies defining a band's genre.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The argument started about the quality of riffs. I never said there isn't a relation of black/thrash to black metal, but the riffs are largely thrash metal riffs. Therefore, using thrash metal riffs to defend black metal against Liturgy is a sign of defeat. I gave an example of non-cover songs after I revealed that your first definition was one you didn't even agree with.