Decimator
Member
What is it with americans and taking everything good and watering it down until all you are left with is a bland mutated mess that makes 14 year olds go crazy?
Are you talking about American beer
Mallcore? deathcore? Care to explain?
- Thread starter CountedShadows
- Start date
Are you talking about American beer
egan.
daylightdies.com
At that point that was what a lot of people were calling hardcore crossover bands like Earth Crisis...lots of the stuff that really put victory records on the map. I recall it being applied to the "metal" records that the cro-mags and agnostic front made in the early 90's as well.Metalcore (both the term and the music it refers to) existed in '95?
I guess it isn't any different than the term emo that I associated with the early 90's DC punk scene turning into a reference to what it is now.
GarethSE
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Matthias King
The Machine
You've started the inevitable genre-nazi pontification. Even though, at this point, it shouldn't, it still amazes me how obsessed people are with dissecting genres and sub-genres and sub-sub-genres down to less than trivial minutiae, instead of actually listening to or writing music.
You say that like it's one or the other By hyper-analyzing what I don't like about certain types of music, I can know what to avoid at all costs in my own songwriting!
By hyper-analyzing what I don't like about certain types of music, I can know what to avoid at all costs in my own songwriting!
egan.
daylightdies.com
You have quite the flare for the melodrama. Incidentally, the theatrical genre of melodrama uses theme-music to manipulate the spectator's emotional response and to denote character types. The term combines "melody" (from the Greek "melōidía", meaning "song") and "drama"(Classical Greek: δράμα, dráma; meaning "action").
JMarz
New Metal Member
slayercannibalsuffohead
Get a dog up ya!
Not sure about mallcore or deathcore, but the one that's always got me is MELODIC DEATH METAL.
I see people labeling bands such as In Flames, melodic death metal. There is no DEATH in bands like this.
If it was labelled MELODIC HAPPY METAL, I could understand.
MELODIC DEATH METAL- Good, simple drum patterns, mixed with happy majorish riffs, with a happy chorus that you can hum too, (like when you were 9 humming along to seasame street songs), throw in some screams, ( like a 14 year old girl getting kidnapped screams), lyrics that came out of a best selling novel, some guitar noodling in scale form, up down up down, again something you can hum to, distort guitars and add great clinical production and bingo! ............... But where is the DEATH?
DEATH METAL- chaotic leads, technical riffage outside your usual major happy and somtimes minor inspired noodling, riffs that follow no musical laws, resulting in songs that cave your head in, drumming that is mad man like, with fills that are usually superior, vocals that sound evil as fuck or as aggressive as fuck, ( no lala ), lyrics that come straight from satans personal stash.
Being a Death metal guitarist, there is a certain brutalness and evilness that you can feel when playing and writing, it's something that is hard to put into words, (but I tried), and it's just a certain feel that IMHO only certain guitarist possess.
I am one of these old geezers that have been in the scene forever, does that make me right? Well.... No! But it is an opinion from someone who has heard and played a lot, and I mean a lot of metal. I just cannot for the life of me hear or feel any DEATH in Melodic styled metal.
I see people labeling bands such as In Flames, melodic death metal. There is no DEATH in bands like this.
If it was labelled MELODIC HAPPY METAL, I could understand.
MELODIC DEATH METAL- Good, simple drum patterns, mixed with happy majorish riffs, with a happy chorus that you can hum too, (like when you were 9 humming along to seasame street songs), throw in some screams, ( like a 14 year old girl getting kidnapped screams), lyrics that came out of a best selling novel, some guitar noodling in scale form, up down up down, again something you can hum to, distort guitars and add great clinical production and bingo! ............... But where is the DEATH?
DEATH METAL- chaotic leads, technical riffage outside your usual major happy and somtimes minor inspired noodling, riffs that follow no musical laws, resulting in songs that cave your head in, drumming that is mad man like, with fills that are usually superior, vocals that sound evil as fuck or as aggressive as fuck, ( no lala ), lyrics that come straight from satans personal stash.
Being a Death metal guitarist, there is a certain brutalness and evilness that you can feel when playing and writing, it's something that is hard to put into words, (but I tried), and it's just a certain feel that IMHO only certain guitarist possess.
I am one of these old geezers that have been in the scene forever, does that make me right? Well.... No! But it is an opinion from someone who has heard and played a lot, and I mean a lot of metal. I just cannot for the life of me hear or feel any DEATH in Melodic styled metal.
xFkx
gain induction
Wow, it amazes me how much you can take a short sentence like "I like death metal" and create a goddamn essay out of it
Sickan
¯\(°_o)/¯
Have you heard their early In Flames albums, when they actually were Melodic Death Metal?
Harry Hughes
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Metalcore means a totally different thing today then what it used to mean.
To me, Metalcore refers to bands from around the late 80s to the early/mid 90s that were fucking around with metal and hardcore elements and went absolutely fucking nuts and didn't compromise. Bands like Converge clearly didn't set out to capture the mainstream audience.
Metalcore doesn't seem to mean this anymore unfortunately. For every one good metalcore band I hear, I hear 500 000 others that have just jumped on a bandwagon to be cool.
Same with emo.
Granted, I'm not saying everyone will like the old school stuff musically, but that shit used to be about the music and to me was kind of an off shoot of hardcore punk. The guys in Sunny Day Real Estate had beards for fuck sake.
Look at emo now. It's a fucking fashion trend where the males look like pussies. The music is now just a version of pop punk.
But if I must be totally fair, I'll look at things from a wider perspective.
As far as I'm concerned, just as I hear one good metalcore band for every 1000, I'll hear one good death metal band for every 1000, or one good thrash metal band.
Most thrash metal I hear is a rehash of the 80s. I don't want to hear it and I don't care, because it was done well in the 80s, people need to move on.
Most death metal I hear is a rehash of the 80s and 90s stuff, and again, I don't give a fuck to hear it anymore because I don't want to hear the same Morbid Angel or In Flames riffs done by 100000 different bands.
Straight death metal, straight thrash metal, straight metalcore etc, it's been done, it's so meh to me now.
So where does that leave me (and others wanting to hear something new) now?
I go for the bands that aren't just jumping on a genre because the groundwork is already layed down for them.
When I first heard Nevermore, I fucking shit my pants, because in one song they run the gamut from thrash, death metal riffing, tech metal, progressive metal and more.
When I heard Between the Buried and Me's Colors, it was incredible. They mashed together some many different genres of metal, metalcore, and even jazzy sections and what not.
The best "thrash metal" I've heard in recent times is not bands that do the Bay Area formula for the millionth time, but are mixing up metalcore, tech death influences and making something that doesn't make me think it's a pure Metallica or Megadeth clone, but in fact something new.
I really started to warm to the idea of metalcore influencing my favorite genres, thrash and death metal, because it gives everything a more modern and up to date sound.
This will really divide opinions, but I think the days of when you could make a straight, single genre album, like a straight thrash metal album, a straight groove metal is over.
The only good metal I've heard in the last year or so is because bands are willing to take risk and explore creative options that are deemed "false" by elitist metalheads.
I used to be one of those elitist guys that obsessed with "troo" and all that bullshit, but after a while I felt like I was living in a cartoon universe because it felt absurd to think only good metal came from the "troo" genres.
So I opened up my mind and starting to listen to stuff I normally would have shunned at face value.
I started to hear bands that just fucked with everything from jazz fusion, metalcore, hardcore punk, mathcore in single songs. Yes, it was "core" music but it was devoid of the mallcore melodic hook catchy hooks, the song structures are crazy and pretty much none of the bands had achieved any real commercial success because it was too out there and not easy to digest for 15 year old "scene" girls.
I'm not saying people will necessarily like it, but the point is if you're able to open your mind up enough and want to dig deep, you will find core bands that don't jump on the "melodic shitcore" bandwagon most bands do.
To me, Metalcore refers to bands from around the late 80s to the early/mid 90s that were fucking around with metal and hardcore elements and went absolutely fucking nuts and didn't compromise. Bands like Converge clearly didn't set out to capture the mainstream audience.
Metalcore doesn't seem to mean this anymore unfortunately. For every one good metalcore band I hear, I hear 500 000 others that have just jumped on a bandwagon to be cool.
Same with emo.
Granted, I'm not saying everyone will like the old school stuff musically, but that shit used to be about the music and to me was kind of an off shoot of hardcore punk. The guys in Sunny Day Real Estate had beards for fuck sake.
Look at emo now. It's a fucking fashion trend where the males look like pussies. The music is now just a version of pop punk.
But if I must be totally fair, I'll look at things from a wider perspective.
As far as I'm concerned, just as I hear one good metalcore band for every 1000, I'll hear one good death metal band for every 1000, or one good thrash metal band.
Most thrash metal I hear is a rehash of the 80s. I don't want to hear it and I don't care, because it was done well in the 80s, people need to move on.
Most death metal I hear is a rehash of the 80s and 90s stuff, and again, I don't give a fuck to hear it anymore because I don't want to hear the same Morbid Angel or In Flames riffs done by 100000 different bands.
Straight death metal, straight thrash metal, straight metalcore etc, it's been done, it's so meh to me now.
So where does that leave me (and others wanting to hear something new) now?
I go for the bands that aren't just jumping on a genre because the groundwork is already layed down for them.
When I first heard Nevermore, I fucking shit my pants, because in one song they run the gamut from thrash, death metal riffing, tech metal, progressive metal and more.
When I heard Between the Buried and Me's Colors, it was incredible. They mashed together some many different genres of metal, metalcore, and even jazzy sections and what not.
The best "thrash metal" I've heard in recent times is not bands that do the Bay Area formula for the millionth time, but are mixing up metalcore, tech death influences and making something that doesn't make me think it's a pure Metallica or Megadeth clone, but in fact something new.
I really started to warm to the idea of metalcore influencing my favorite genres, thrash and death metal, because it gives everything a more modern and up to date sound.
This will really divide opinions, but I think the days of when you could make a straight, single genre album, like a straight thrash metal album, a straight groove metal is over.
The only good metal I've heard in the last year or so is because bands are willing to take risk and explore creative options that are deemed "false" by elitist metalheads.
I used to be one of those elitist guys that obsessed with "troo" and all that bullshit, but after a while I felt like I was living in a cartoon universe because it felt absurd to think only good metal came from the "troo" genres.
So I opened up my mind and starting to listen to stuff I normally would have shunned at face value.
I started to hear bands that just fucked with everything from jazz fusion, metalcore, hardcore punk, mathcore in single songs. Yes, it was "core" music but it was devoid of the mallcore melodic hook catchy hooks, the song structures are crazy and pretty much none of the bands had achieved any real commercial success because it was too out there and not easy to digest for 15 year old "scene" girls.
I'm not saying people will necessarily like it, but the point is if you're able to open your mind up enough and want to dig deep, you will find core bands that don't jump on the "melodic shitcore" bandwagon most bands do.
Harry Hughes
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+1
In Flames (IMHO) pretty much peaked with Jester Race and never topped it since. I don't even listen to their 00's stuff at all.
slayercannibalsuffohead
Get a dog up ya!
Ok, had a listen to early inflames and just as I remembered, no DEATH in there at all, brought back good memories though, they were good albums, sitting here now humming some of it just like I did when I was 6, humming nursery rhymes.
Overall the albums were very happy sounding with melodic breaks, no toughness present, no evilness, no brutal parts, no chaos, in, no death!
I can't stop humming, la la la la, lalala lalalalalalala
l
Sickan
¯\(°_o)/¯
I can't stop humming, la la la la, lalala lalalalalalala
l
Haha prick!
Harry Hughes
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Ok, had a listen to early inflames and just as I remembered, no DEATH in there at all, brought back good memories though, they were good albums, sitting here now humming some of it just like I did when I was 6, humming nursery rhymes.
Overall the albums were very happy sounding with melodic breaks, no toughness present, no evilness, no brutal parts, no chaos, in, no death!
I can't stop humming, la la la la, lalala lalalalalalala
l
Why is there suddenly these extremely narrow rules as to what constitutes death metal?
What I feel is the first real heavy metal album ever, Paranoid, contains considerable amounts of blues rock elements.
Doesn't this tell you that an album does not have to be constantly "troo" and "metulz" to be metal?
Is Master of Puppets not thrash metal because it contained melodic, quiet interludes in several songs off the album, because it contained Orion which for almost half the song contains a major scale happy melodic riff?
Did that album have to have thrash metal elements from start to finish to be thrash metal? I would sure hope not.
Is Rust In Peace not thrash metal because Lucretia is a mid paced rather than a fast paced song? Bullshit man.
I could go even further and more narrowed minded and say that most thrash metal is in fact not thrash metal because it doesn't have chromatic "evil" riffs like Slayer did. Cos you know, how can Metallica's RTL have been thrash metal with melodic songs like Fade to Black and and a mid tempo song like Escape? How could Rust in Peace have been thrash metal if a lot of the riffing is based on diatonicism and pentatonicism rather than chromaticism?
I call bullshit, man.
What made the thrash metal bands thrash metal is because of the shared musical elements, not what made them different. Megadeth is in many ways a totally different sound and approach to Slayer, but they both share many common elements.
This is seriously the first time I've heard In Flames not being called death metal due to lack of "toughness" "evilness" "no brutal parts" and "no chaos".
But funny how In Flames shares in common with your "trool death metulz" bands with aspects like death growls, severe double bass drumming and tremolo picked riffing. If anything, death growls and large quantities of tremolo picked riffs are among some of the most defining features of death metal guitar player.
In Flames just happens to do this diatonically rather than chromatically/atonally/dissonantly.
slashvanyoung
Dopefish lives!
slayercannibalsuffohead
Get a dog up ya!
Hey Petrovski, there is no "troo" death metal, or "whatever" death metal, it's just death metal! My opinions on the subject are, as you say "extremely narrow", ( I love your use of adjectives ), but I disagree, as I say in my previous posts, you have to be able to show 5 elements which make up, what I know, love, love to play, listen to, write and record, what is called "death metal"
The 5 elements needs for a "death metal cake" are,
1 - Brutalness - head crushing riffs, ( no fucking la la shit!), with blast, grind, thrash, technical drumming, showing good doses of relentless jackhammering and/or slow crushing off key riffage, that puts you in a state of pure aggression.
2 - Death Vocals - ( a la George Fischer and Frank Mullins ), straight to the point, no fucking around, evil sounding, ( not witchy poo sounding ), vocals that don't confirm to simple patterns, aggressive assertive growls that are low and carnivorous.
3 - Lyrics - Words that would make your mother pass out, not something that's written from a best selling novel!
4 - Off key riffage - Riffs that follow no boundaries, ( not like most melodic bands ) that rip off Iron Maiden key changes, eg .... Going from 7th fret to 3rd fret then to the 5th fret etc etc. Death metal riffs cave your head in with an unmistakable jumble of notes woven together to produce something aggressively evil, not happy and fancy!
5 - Drumming - as I said earlier, must contain signs of relentlesness, whether it be a thrash beat, grind beat, blast beat, ( usually quicker tempoed than most other styles of music ) with fills that are usually superior than other styles also.
These ingredients make up the best part of a " Death Metal cake ". These elements don't have to be played 100% of the time, but they do have to be present for the vast majority of a bands entire list. Can you have melodisism in death metal, of course. But if it takes up 50%+ of a bands writing and they lack most of the 5 key ingredients, ( a la In Flames ), then no, they are not death metal, nor do they deserve to be catagorised as "Melodic Death Metal", because there is fuck all death, they are "Melodic Metal"
Quote; "Doesnt this tell you that an album does not have to be constantly "troo" and "metulz" to be metal?". Correct. Although you are calling it as if "soccer" is a sport, yes it is, what kind of a sport is it? Answer, soccer! Not badminton, not rugby not golf but soccer. There are certain ingredients in soccer that makes it what it is. It's not called "Rugby without the use of hands" or " Golf without a club", there is no rugby in soccer and there is no golf in soccer, but they are all sports. Is In Flames or Metallica metal, to answer your question, Yes! Is it death metal, no, should it catagorised with the word death in it, no.
As for the Master of Puppets and Rust in Peace not being thrash because it doesn't contain " evil " riffs like slayer, I never said anything about whether or not they should be thrash or not! To answer that, of course Megadeth are fucking thrash, why?, because 80 odd % of their songs contain thrash elements. Should they be called "Melodic Thrash?", no, are Metallica thrash?, well, they were, but not now, as 80% of their last 15 odd years has lacked thrash elements
In Flames don't death growl, they witchy poo growl, just like black metal singers! And your use of the adjective " severe " cracks me up. In Flames do not play " severe " double bass drumming.
Large quantities of tremelo picked riffs are also in thrash metal and black metal, ( do we now class Slayer as Thrash Black Melodic Death Metal?), but that alone , with some , as you call it "growls" and "severe" double bass drumming do not make you or any other band automatically death metal. You are still missing most of the ingredients!
Some people have a 6th sense for death metal and from what you have written, you don't.
Just because you tune low, scream a bit and can play at 160+ bpm, does not mean you are "Death Metal".
In Flames are " Melodic Metal"
The 5 elements needs for a "death metal cake" are,
1 - Brutalness - head crushing riffs, ( no fucking la la shit!), with blast, grind, thrash, technical drumming, showing good doses of relentless jackhammering and/or slow crushing off key riffage, that puts you in a state of pure aggression.
2 - Death Vocals - ( a la George Fischer and Frank Mullins ), straight to the point, no fucking around, evil sounding, ( not witchy poo sounding ), vocals that don't confirm to simple patterns, aggressive assertive growls that are low and carnivorous.
3 - Lyrics - Words that would make your mother pass out, not something that's written from a best selling novel!
4 - Off key riffage - Riffs that follow no boundaries, ( not like most melodic bands ) that rip off Iron Maiden key changes, eg .... Going from 7th fret to 3rd fret then to the 5th fret etc etc. Death metal riffs cave your head in with an unmistakable jumble of notes woven together to produce something aggressively evil, not happy and fancy!
5 - Drumming - as I said earlier, must contain signs of relentlesness, whether it be a thrash beat, grind beat, blast beat, ( usually quicker tempoed than most other styles of music ) with fills that are usually superior than other styles also.
These ingredients make up the best part of a " Death Metal cake ". These elements don't have to be played 100% of the time, but they do have to be present for the vast majority of a bands entire list. Can you have melodisism in death metal, of course. But if it takes up 50%+ of a bands writing and they lack most of the 5 key ingredients, ( a la In Flames ), then no, they are not death metal, nor do they deserve to be catagorised as "Melodic Death Metal", because there is fuck all death, they are "Melodic Metal"
Quote; "Doesnt this tell you that an album does not have to be constantly "troo" and "metulz" to be metal?". Correct. Although you are calling it as if "soccer" is a sport, yes it is, what kind of a sport is it? Answer, soccer! Not badminton, not rugby not golf but soccer. There are certain ingredients in soccer that makes it what it is. It's not called "Rugby without the use of hands" or " Golf without a club", there is no rugby in soccer and there is no golf in soccer, but they are all sports. Is In Flames or Metallica metal, to answer your question, Yes! Is it death metal, no, should it catagorised with the word death in it, no.
As for the Master of Puppets and Rust in Peace not being thrash because it doesn't contain " evil " riffs like slayer, I never said anything about whether or not they should be thrash or not! To answer that, of course Megadeth are fucking thrash, why?, because 80 odd % of their songs contain thrash elements. Should they be called "Melodic Thrash?", no, are Metallica thrash?, well, they were, but not now, as 80% of their last 15 odd years has lacked thrash elements
In Flames don't death growl, they witchy poo growl, just like black metal singers! And your use of the adjective " severe " cracks me up. In Flames do not play " severe " double bass drumming.
Large quantities of tremelo picked riffs are also in thrash metal and black metal, ( do we now class Slayer as Thrash Black Melodic Death Metal?), but that alone , with some , as you call it "growls" and "severe" double bass drumming do not make you or any other band automatically death metal. You are still missing most of the ingredients!
Some people have a 6th sense for death metal and from what you have written, you don't.
Just because you tune low, scream a bit and can play at 160+ bpm, does not mean you are "Death Metal".
In Flames are " Melodic Metal"
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