Official GMD Photo/Social Thread

[Cythraul]

so whats the objective measure of 'quality'?

art is a communicative medium, how the fuck do you evaluate it without taking into account the attitudes of the observer towards it? how the fuck is the subjective experience of art separable from its objective essence?

oh that's right IT ISNT you fucking dumbfuck

This makes little sense. Nobody ever claimed that the evaluation of works of art doesn't involve subjective experience. It's also equally obvious that observers take various attitudes towards works of art. None of those points settles the question of whose attitude, if any, is the correct one to take regarding the quality of a work of art. Why should anyone's attitude be taken into account moreso here than in any other domain, in so far as we want to settle the question of something's quality? Since when was somebody's subjective attitude towards something relevant to the truth of any claim at all?

 

[Ender Rises]

We used to have Open Mic Night every month when I was in High School, and at the last one we had before I graduated, this guy in my class got up on stage with his guitar and sang a version of that, which went "New Hope-Solebury aint nothing to crunk with". It was stupid, but funny. He was also really good at the guitar... Not anymore, though, seeing as he's dead now.

By the way:

19 years old + .16 BAC + Weed + 80mph in a 40mph zone + 2:00 AM + Dangerous, windy road + Tree - Seat Belt = Bad news.

This is true.

 

[Wires & Waves]

This makes little sense. Nobody ever claimed that the evaluation of works of art doesn't involve subjective experience. It's also equally obvious that observers take various attitudes towards works of art. None of those points settles the question of whose attitude, if any, is the correct one to take regarding the quality of a work of art. Why should anyone's attitude be taken into account moreso here than in any other domain, in so far as we want to settle the question of something's quality? Since when was somebody's subjective attitude towards something relevant to the truth of any claim at all?

even if you feel that art can possess a goal not necessarily synergistic with its role as communicator with individuals, you'd have a hard time demonstrating that this is objective fact and not your own prescribed reasoning.

f

 

[Ender Rises]

so whats the objective measure of 'quality'?

art is a communicative medium, how the fuck do you evaluate it without taking into account the attitudes of the observer towards it? how the fuck is the subjective experience of art separable from its objective essence?

oh that's right IT ISNT you fucking dumbfuck

edit: even if you feel that art can possess a goal not necessarily synergistic with its role as communicator with individuals, you'd have a hard time demonstrating that this is objective fact and not your own prescribed reasoning.

i don't get you people. is it really so hard to deal with the fact that your taste in music isn't objectively fucking superior to anyone else's? it's pretty easy to deal with, just take my approach. while i can't objectively demonstrate that my taste in music is superior, given the appreciation of art depends on how the subjective observer relates to the work, drawing on their own past experience & general nature, i can safely conclude that certain types of people are inclined to like certain types of music, and therefore that a person's taste in music is, to some degree, a reflection of their personality. as most classical music is, to me, boring and irrelevant, i can therefore conclude that anyone who thinks classical music is the best music is, to me, an escapist dullard.

seriously this desire to believe that your own preferences are supported by INCONTROVERTIBLE OBJECTIVE FACT just reeks of insecurity and a childish philosophical outlook

SHUT THE FUCK UP. PLEASE. It's a discussion on a website made for discussion, so for the love of GOD take the dildo out of your ass and RELAX. Sure some people were being assholes, that happens, but it doesn't make us all fucking idiots just because them being assholes pisses you off in a discussion that if memory serves me correctly you weren't included in. Stop going off on people like this just because you want to prove your point. Show some fucking class.


EDIT: BTW, I agree with you, art is a subjective experience and there is nor ever will be an objective viewpoint on it. But I don't go around looking like a douche trying to prove my fucking viewpoint.

 

[Cythraul]

edit: even if you feel that art can possess a goal not necessarily synergistic with its role as communicator with individuals, you'd have a hard time demonstrating that this is objective fact and not your own prescribed reasoning.

It's almost a truism that art is some kind of communicative medium. The question one is asking when they ask "Is this work of art good?" is a question about the content of the work and how it is presented, not about your or anybody else's attitude towards it.

as most classical music is, to me, boring and irrelevant, i can therefore conclude that anyone who thinks classical music is the best music is, to me, an escapist dullard.

Yeah the only problem with that is that you're not uttering some kind of "subjective" claim there. You are making a claim about people who like classical music which is amenable to investigation and which looks, on the face of it, plainly false.

edit: and the latter claim doesn't even follow from the former at all. That should be obvious. Are you retarded?

seriously this desire to believe that your own preferences are supported by INCONTROVERTIBLE OBJECTIVE FACT just reeks of insecurity and a childish philosophical outlook

That's bullshit.

 

[Wires & Waves]

SHUT THE FUCK UP. PLEASE. It's a discussion on a website made for discussion, so for the love of GOD take the dildo out of your ass and RELAX. Sure some people were being assholes, that happens, but it doesn't make us all fucking idiots just because them being assholes pisses you off in a discussion that if memory serves me correctly you weren't included in. Stop going off on people like this just because you want to prove your point. Show some fucking class.

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Cythraul]

f

Yeah...how the hell is that supposed to be an adequate response?

 

[ThisIsACoolName]

God damn it shut the fuck up. For real.

(@ Wires and God I love pop music look at my I am different from yous guys heeeeey.)

 

[Ender Rises]

Way to go douche. That was fucking mature.

 

[Wires & Waves]

It's almost a truism that art is some kind of communicative medium. The question one is asking when they ask "Is this work of art good?" is a question about the content of the work and how it is presented, not about your or anybody else's attitude towards it.

and it's impossible to separate evaluation of content and presentation from subjectivity, ergo me thinking pop is better than classical, even vis-a-vis these criteria (which are not the criteria i have in mind when i ask 'is this work of art good', by the way, so that shatters that generalization) is as 'correct' as any other opinion re: the genres' relative qualities. QED.

Yeah the only problem with that is that you're not uttering some kind of "subjective" claim there. You are making a claim about people who like classical music which is amenable to investigation and which looks, on the face of it, plainly false.

except it's not amenable to investigation because whether someone is dull or escapist is entirely a matter of opinion

That's bullshit.

no it isnt

 

[Cythraul]

and it's impossible to separate evaluation of content and presentation from subjectivity, ergo me thinking pop is better than classical is as 'correct' as any other opinion re: the genres' relative qualities

You have not adequately shown how to make sense of this claim. You are not showing why it's impossible to make said separation. There's a difference between the act of evaluating something and the thing being evaluated. The act of evaluating content occurs from a perspective, no doubt. But this is true for all of our investigations. All the objects in the world that we talk about are experienced subjectively. Art is not a special case. The evaluation, judgment, or investigation of something always occurs from a given perspective, but this has no bearing on whether our claims about such things are true or not.

except it's not amenable to investigation because whether someone is dull or escapist is entirely a matter of opinion

Are you out of your fucking mind? The terms 'dull' and 'escapist' both have meanings in the English language, a corresponding description which someone can fit or fail to fit. Thus, deciding whether someone is escapist or dull is much like deciding whether or not Asia is a large continent, or whether you're an annoying dipshit.

edit: Some further considerations. You might think that the meanings of terms like 'dull' and 'escapist' contain some kind of value component. This supposition is much more plausible in the case of 'dull' than in the case of 'escapist'. You might think that if that is true, it undermines the objectivity of statements such as "X is dull". But this is bad for you and your argument, because terms like 'reasonable' and 'plausible' contain value components in the very meanings of the terms. It follows then that whether a view is more reasonable or plausible than another is subjective and merely a matter of opinion. Therefore, I could safely say that my view is more reasonable and more plausible than your's, cuz you know, it's just a matter of opinion man.

no it isnt

Care to provide some evidence for your claims?

 

[MasterOLightning]

W&W, I don't know what your deal is right now, but you've been pretty bitchy in just about all your posts lately. Chill out.

 

[Jean-Pierre]

I believe that I regularly do that.

Exactly. For instance, Aretha Franklin is obviously more important than Savage Steel, but I'd prefer to listen to Savage Steel.

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

Exactly. For instance, Aretha Franklin is obviously more important than Savage Steel, but I'd prefer to listen to Savage Steel.

or miles davis is far superior, artistically and musically to a band like slayer, but I prefer to listen to slayer (although I like miles once in a while)

 

[Thoth-Amon]

so whats the objective measure of 'quality'?

art is a communicative medium, how the fuck do you evaluate it without taking into account the attitudes of the observer towards it? how the fuck is the subjective experience of art separable from its objective essence?

oh that's right IT ISNT you fucking dumbfuck

edit: even if you feel that art can possess a goal not necessarily synergistic with its role as communicator with individuals, you'd have a hard time demonstrating that this is objective fact and not your own prescribed reasoning.

i don't get you people. is it really so hard to deal with the fact that your taste in music isn't objectively fucking superior to anyone else's? it's pretty easy to deal with, just take my approach. while i can't objectively demonstrate that my taste in music is superior, given the appreciation of art depends on how the subjective observer relates to the work, drawing on their own past experience & general nature, i can safely conclude that certain types of people are inclined to like certain types of music, and therefore that a person's taste in music is, to some degree, a reflection of their personality. as most classical music is, to me, boring and irrelevant, i can therefore conclude that anyone who thinks classical music is the best music is, to me, an escapist dullard.

seriously this desire to believe that your own preferences are supported by INCONTROVERTIBLE OBJECTIVE FACT just reeks of insecurity and a childish philosophical outlook

Interesting. Going by that very same reasoning you have just described you have INVALIDATED your previous post that pop music is the best music there is... afterall your opinion that it is the best music is dependent upon your own subjective experience and taste and those things aren't objective... so you have just contradicted yourself.
Going by the same reasoning you have in your last paragraph I can conclude that you are SHALLOW in thinking that classical music is enjoyed by dull people.
I mean honestly... how the fuck do you find 'Portions for Foxes' to be more emotionally gratifying than Mahler's 5th or Stravinsky's 'The Rite of Spring' or Mozart's 'C Minor Mass'?

 

[Thoth-Amon]

or miles davis is far superior, artistically and musically to a band like slayer, but I prefer to listen to slayer (although I like miles once in a while)

Yes... precisely. 110% agreement.

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

I'm listening to beethoven "piana sonata #8" and it is pretty fucking sweet I must say

I need to get into more classical music

 

[Thoth-Amon]

I'm listening to beethoven "piana sonata #8" and it is pretty fucking sweet I must say

I need to get into more classical music

Yeah that's a kickass sonata... one of the most popular ones also. His 29th is the most highly regarded one... it's not an easy piece to get into... but the adagio is great.

 

[Hubster]

Not to jump into a fight here, but for anyone to say that they find classical music irrelevant shows only that they are yet to truly understand music.

Benjamin, for a while I thought you had a clue about music. For you to throw mud at one of the most intelligent forms of art ever created in the history of the human race defies logic, even more so when you don't have an understanding of it.

Your opinion shows clearly, and unfortunately, that you're nothing more than a pop fanboy, with limited comprehension of the true meaning of art, expression, and its correlations to history, politics and the like.

I'd highly suggest that to counter what I've said here, you go and start doing some reading and a great deal of listening: you don't necessarily have to "like" classical or early music, but you can not undermine its significance and importance. For you to constructively argue against its relevance to todays world (and music for that matter), you must do some study on it (anything from reading some books and listening to doing a degree if you need to).

I myself prefer metal over all styles of music, yet I will say that Western Art Music is to this day still the most advanced, colourful and expressive form of aural art this world has ever known. It is unparalleled, and has firmly sat on the throne of aural art for almost one thousand years.

Irrelevant it is not. Infact, it is even more important than ever before, especially due to the rising occurance of more performances in Baroque and earlier styles of music for which more manuscripts are being discovered.

Very, very disappointing mate. Big thumbs down. From now on I will definitely take any knowledge of music you exhibit with even less of a grain of salt than what I did before. Get some music history books dude, and soon.

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

you forgot [/pwnage]