Races

[die for metal89]

There's a difference between jokes between friends, and racial slurs.
Say a middle aged stranger of colour/race 'x', smoking a pipe and wearing an expensive suit approached you in the street and asked exactly the same question?
I can't speak for you of course, but I would imagine you'd have an entirely different view of those few words and their implied meaning.
I am, of course, completely hypocritical in that I'll make jokes at my 'ethnic' friends' expense. (Good humoured and within the bounds of these friends' tolerance for such things) I'd never say these things to strangers, or in the presence of strangers though.

oh well yeah of course. i totally agree, but i still think people are so uptight about these things. one of the things i hate is how people complain about mexicans from mexico not speaking english. i mean first yeah i agree you come to this country, you need to learn to speak english but i have seen some people get really mad and rant about mexicans speaking spanish period like it should be illegal in america. and i know thats not the only example and its not just mexicans.
but idk ive only had a few racist experiences in my life and they were years ago and i just dont really care enough. ill just grab my ipod and jam to some good music.

 

[derek]

English is only the de facto language in the United States. In many respects you're talking about a knee-jerk (often xenophobic)response to the problem of illegal immigration.

It may stem from the fact that peoples tend to dislike other races as a matter of course, unless that impulse is overridden by something else.

 

[Death Aflame]

one of the things i hate is how people complain about mexicans from mexico not speaking english. i mean first yeah i agree you come to this country, you need to learn to speak english but i have seen some people get really mad and rant about mexicans speaking spanish period like it should be illegal in america.

From personal experience, when a group of people speak a foreign language deliberately in front of someone who doesn't speak that language the reason is almost always to talk behind the person's back, despite them standing right there. I think that's just an etiquette thing though--it is rude no matter what language is spoken.

 

[Einherjar86]

I think that immigration contains a lot of tough issues. I, personally, feel that immigrants should learn English if they choose to live in the United States; however, I understand that learning a new language is difficult and that many immigrants have arrived here with next to nothing, and thus often do not have the resources to do so. I also do not believe that they should be forced to learn the language by government mandate; that would cost a great deal of extra money that I'm not willing to pay.

Logically, it seems that the only conclusion I can arrive at is to disallow the influx of immigration altogether and become a completely isolationist, self-sustaining country; however, I also believe that if people from foreign countries wish to lawfully emigrate then they should be allowed to do so.

Unfortunately, my beliefs are a mass of contradictions. It's a problem I've encountered quite a bit in my individualist, libertarian ideals.

 

[derek]

It's a problem of being a person, more generally.

 

[Einherjar86]

True.

 

[monoxide_child]

hey quick history lesson here

when Thomas Jefferson bought the Lousianna Purchase from Napolean, the cities of New Orleans and Saint Louis were large area cities with a huge number of people per square mile, and none of those people spoke English, cuz they spoke French, those people learned English pretty quick when they realized they were now part of an English speaking country,

when Lewis and Clark explored the Louisianna Purchase the encountered lots of Native Americans, who all learned English, (except the ones that died)

when America bought Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California, these areas contained as many people as they do now, and those people were speaking Spanish because they were born in Spain, and those people learned English pretty quick when they realized they were now part of the English speaking country

after the California Gold Rush started, and America decided to build a railroad track connecting the beach of New York State to the beach of San Francisco, all of the workers that built all of the pieces of track that were West of the Rockies, all those workers spoke Mandarin because they were all born in China, and they had to learn English overnight in order to comunicate with the Americans that wanted the track built to begin with

when the Great Potato Famine happened, and America was Flooded people looking for food, most of those people couldn't speak English cuz they were speaking Welsh and/or Gaelic (spell?) and those people had to learn English overnight in order to aquire food

by the begining of world war 2, the part of america east of the mississipi river was crammed full of people that were born in europe, and it's general knowledge that america then got flooded with people escaping the Nazis

The Korean War and Veitnam resulted in California getting flooded with people born in Asia, when Castro took power, Florida got flooded with people born in Cuba, there's been a steady stream of people born in The Middle East coming to Amirica since about 1980, and lots of people came to America escaping the wars in Sudan and Rwanda,

my point here is that all these groups of people learned English overnight, and out of all the multi-lingual people on the planet, 85% of them know English as one of their languages, so why the fucking hell are the people born in Mexico so fucking reluctant to learn English like the rest of the world?

 

[derek]

Because fuck you, that's why.

 

[forbidden fruit]

English is only the de facto language in the United States. In many respects you're talking about a knee-jerk (often xenophobic)response to the problem of illegal immigration.

It may stem from the fact that peoples tend to dislike other races as a matter of course, unless that impulse is overridden by something else.

I've often wondered to what extent 'natural competetion' between races plays in racism. I mean something innate, that should you ask them, they may not be able to understand it themselves... as opposed to just disliking, or fearing, the unfamiliar.
From my experience, you get any group of people with a commonality, and another person, or group of people, that do not share it, and unless there's an over-riding factor, as you mentioned, (upbringing, compassion, other common ground etc etc), you're bound to get at least some friction... even if it's limited to raised eyebrows or some such.

Because fuck you, that's why.

Is that your official stance? I like it!!! hahahahhahaaaaaa

 

[derek]

It certainly able to be explained as simply innate, although I'd posit that some really do build on this to absurdity.

Oh and yes, it's my offical stance.

 

[monoxide_child]

I mean something innate, ... as opposed to just disliking, or fearing, the unfamiliar.

but isn't disliking and/or fearing the unfamiliar something that's innate?

 

[monoxide_child]

hey quick history lesson here

when Thomas Jefferson bought the Lousianna Purchase from Napolean, the cities of New Orleans and Saint Louis were large area cities with a huge number of people per square mile, and none of those people spoke English, cuz they spoke French, those people learned English pretty quick when they realized they were now part of an English speaking country,

when Lewis and Clark explored the Louisianna Purchase the encountered lots of Native Americans, who all learned English, (except the ones that died)

when America bought Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California, these areas contained as many people as they do now, and those people were speaking Spanish because they were born in Spain, and those people learned English pretty quick when they realized they were now part of the English speaking country

after the California Gold Rush started, and America decided to build a railroad track connecting the beach of New York State to the beach of San Francisco, all of the workers that built all of the pieces of track that were West of the Rockies, all those workers spoke Mandarin because they were all born in China, and they had to learn English overnight in order to comunicate with the Americans that wanted the track built to begin with

when the Great Potato Famine happened, and America was Flooded people looking for food, most of those people couldn't speak English cuz they were speaking Welsh and/or Gaelic (spell?) and those people had to learn English overnight in order to aquire food

by the begining of world war 2, the part of america east of the mississipi river was crammed full of people that were born in europe, and it's general knowledge that america then got flooded with people escaping the Nazis

The Korean War and Veitnam resulted in California getting flooded with people born in Asia, when Castro took power, Florida got flooded with people born in Cuba, there's been a steady stream of people born in The Middle East coming to Amirica since about 1980, and lots of people came to America escaping the wars in Sudan and Rwanda,

my point here is that all these groups of people learned English overnight, and out of all the multi-lingual people on the planet, 85% of them know English as one of their languages, so why the fucking hell are the people born in Mexico so fucking reluctant to learn English like the rest of the world?

oh, and i forgot to mention the slaves being transported durring "the slave trade", you really think any of those slave masters actually learned any Swahili?

 

[derek]

Not many, because it'd be redundant. The slave trade predominantly took people from the Western part of sub-Saharan Africa, while Swahili is spoken mostly on states adjacent to the Indian Ocean.

 

[die for metal89]

anybody here seen boondock saints? anybody secretly wish they were real? im watching gangland on the history channel and they are talking about a gang called brown pride and apparently they like to kill. as i have said im mexican and i have my brown pride but these people fucking embarress me. i wish they didnt exist. its ignorant and stupid. thats why some people have racist views to mexicans. and i dont blame them for when gangs like latin kings and brown pride and ms 13 and other latin american gangs fight and kill each other instead of trying to do good for all people belonging to the latin americans and La Raza. does anybody else feel this way about themselves or other races? just curious or am i just overexagerating.

 

[forbidden fruit]

but isn't disliking and/or fearing the unfamiliar something that's innate?

Definitely. And in terms of racial issues I believe it's usually a factor.
But fear and dislike can also both be learned reactions to a situation or subject though.

I guess you could argue; if fear of the unknown, and unfamiliar, is innate in humans, wouldn't this make racism a default position, and it takes positive experiences to over-ride these feelings? (As opposed to equality being at our hearts, and any negative experiences sway our opinion.)

 

[forbidden fruit]

It certainly able to be explained as simply innate, although I'd posit that some really do build on this to absurdity.

Oh and yes, it's my offical stance.

Now THAT'S philosophy!! hehe

Oh absolutely.
There's a big difference between recognising and acknowledging differences between individuals, and beating some person to a pulp, or worse, because of them.

I guess what I'm wondering is if it stems back to a time when people who looked different, or were otherwise unfamiliar, were indeed competition and it was beneficial to you, and yours, to drive them out on occasion...

 

[derek]

Many of these things can be traced related to our biological and psychological evolution over a relatively long time period.

 

[monoxide_child]

Not many, because it'd be redundant. The slave trade predominantly took people from the Western part of sub-Saharan Africa, while Swahili is spoken mostly on states adjacent to the Indian Ocean.

what i meant was,
the slaves learned english really quickly INSTEAD OF any of the slave masters ever learning how to speak the native language(s) of the slaves
i thought the slaves would have spoken Swahili cuz i momentarily forgot that those slaves were taken from a whole different part of the continent

 

[monoxide_child]

From personal experience, when a group of people speak a foreign language deliberately in front of someone who doesn't speak that language the reason is almost always to talk behind the person's back, despite them standing right there. I think that's just an etiquette thing though--it is rude no matter what language is spoken.

i experience this alot when it comes to the bi-lingual people that can't speak spanish

i haven't seen a Middle Eastern cab driver since 9/11, and now when i get into a cab, the driver will dial a phone number AFTER i get into the cab, and spend the entire cab ride talking to someone in Nigerian

my female friends will go to get a manicure, and they'll bitch to me about how the manicurist will start talking to the eyebrow waxer in which-ever Asian language that they speak, and they'll do it while they're actually doing the manicuring/eyebrow waxing

when i go into the convenience store across the street from my apartment, the guy behind the counter will be on the phone speaking in English and suddenly switch into Arabic in the middle of a conversation, it's pretty clear that he's saying shit he doesn't want the customers to understand

but in my experience, when 2 hispanic guys are in a room full of white people and they're talking to each other in Spanish, it'll usually be because one of them can't speak English

 

[Sepia~]

Just to bring my thoughts to this, I live in an area that is inhabitated by many immigrants. This is a neighborhood that's reputation bases on the fact of the immigrants living here. I don't have anything against them, but I know they do a lot of crime and I've been a victim times and times before.
They've been raised by their own family that has lived here since they left their own country. Back then they were discriminated and the parents teach the children the same they experienced: the people here are ignorant pieces of shit that should not be respected at all. And the circle continues. There are exceptions, those who want to find out the truth. And the people originated here are as wrong as they are. But here it's the opposite: when an immigrant commits a crime, they are often punished more heavily by the media and the common folk. When a finn commits a crime, people just assume he/she had one drink too many like every other finn committing a crime.

It is hard, but get to the bottom of things before believing all the stereotypics.