SX and Paradise Lost = Satanic ??
- Thread starter BuNdi
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noble savage
Member
Well, I definitely recommend The Selfish Gene. It deals a lot with evolutionary psychology.
great at asking questions fails to answer
U Effort explainations: does not apply himself to tasks at hand. fails to participate in group efforts, disrupts class
Statler Waldorf
Member
- Jul 30, 2005
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Here's one theory.
All of our now inate instincts come from humanity's experiences and consequences of their behaviour throughout history.
One idea is that uring the EEA (the Environment of Evolutionary Adaption), when Homosapiens were first walking on their own two feet ect ect, humans found that if they were to kill their fellow species, they would be reduced in number and would therefore be less likely to survive against their natural predators.
Nowadays the ideas of "the right to end life" and general morality of behaviour have come to our attention simply due to the increasing intelligence of mankind since it's conception.
That's just one idea, but it's a hell of a lot more believable than "An invisible power made us that way"
Also, what makes you believe in YOUR God specifically? (If you're a christian), what makes you believe that worshipping an invisible force that has has no recognisable effect on the world is rational?
Because if you were to base your beliefs purely on fact and rational thinking, then believing in such a thing would surely seem completely illogical.
Very funny you bash religious practices and then proceed to use an outdated, 180 year old theory to try and explain morality. The day Darwinists can explain the development and purpose of musical and artistic appreciatiion is the day I will give them some credibiltiy. At least Christians can explain why we are the only species that create and appreciate music and art.
Nice way to avoid logic. My statement was much more related to the developement of the human mind rather than specifically Darwinism.
Oh and coming up with some crackpot theory "explains" fuck all. If you can find a piece of 100% reliable EVIDENCE that an invisible man created every human mind then you will have some credibility.
But for now, that doesn't exist, so I prefer to believe in something that ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.
Honestly what's the difference in what you're saying. And me saying "I've discovered the cause of Gravity! There are tiny invisible people on the floor that pull us with their invisible hands!"
noble savage
Member
Of course Darwinism is outdated! It's been expanded on so much in the past 180 years that it's not even recognizable to the first ideas put forward by Darwin. Evolution is the backbone of ALL biology, it has explained more than almost any other scientific theory presented by man.
Wrong! Wolfs make some of the sweetest music
I am starting to feel like a bully :Smokin:
CantoX
Member
Any real scientist will always tell you that nothing is known for certain.. evolution cannot fully explain how humans came to be..
You'd think that if Apes evolved into man that other animals would evolve into more intelligent beings as well..
This is all interesting to read. Still, in my opinion, the basis of religion is to guide you towards a good life.
@ Swabs
Stop trying to be pretentious with the Bible picture post. From what I've read you are anti-religion so you could literally post any picture of the page of the Bibile and say something sarcastic and still find it ammusing to yourself. So please, stop.
You'd think that if Apes evolved into man that other animals would evolve into more intelligent beings as well..
This is all interesting to read. Still, in my opinion, the basis of religion is to guide you towards a good life.
@ Swabs
Stop trying to be pretentious with the Bible picture post. From what I've read you are anti-religion so you could literally post any picture of the page of the Bibile and say something sarcastic and still find it ammusing to yourself. So please, stop.
SilentRealm
Member
I know there's still several pages to read from this point - but OH MY GOD @ this guy!
I don't get how not killing because 'god' apparently says it's wrong is more valid than not killing because you simply don't wish harm to come to another person, or as Zach said because you feel empathy..
p.s. i think only killing of those who don't deserve it is wrong. if someone take an innocent life, violates and defiles it, whether it's actually murder or even just a brutal raping that leaves that person and everyone around them emotionally dead, then the person who did it does not deserve life themselves and in that case i have no problems against killing..
anyhoo
..continues reading..
Phanto
Alalalalalalalala.
noble savage
Member
Evolution most certainly explains why we are here. Humans diverged from older species of primate because a genetic mutation in the structure of their jaw (Shrinking the muscle thus shrinking the crest that is still found on all species of great apes. Which also evolved from older species of monkey.)
There is more uncertainty in what physics really is than there is in evolution. Why don't people complain about our lack of understanding of that? What is so wrong with evolution? People who don't accept evolution and view it as "Just a theory" have never read exactly how beautiful an explanation it really is. Paleontology, archeology, sociology etc etc all converge on the fact that evolution DID happen. Whether people choose to believe it or not. This isn't directed at you canto, it's just an observation.
Still have to admit the stories in the bible read like a low budget, old B&W scifi movie... applying the age old fear factor to keep people in line
You are correct though, I have yet to see evidence of what they used to call the missing link between Neandertal and modern man. But there is evidence of mans physical evolution since written records and I believe even diggings... not that I totally keep up. Many of the learning channels are interesting from time to time and thats the extent I have kept up.
You are correct though, I have yet to see evidence of what they used to call the missing link between Neandertal and modern man. But there is evidence of mans physical evolution since written records and I believe even diggings... not that I totally keep up. Many of the learning channels are interesting from time to time and thats the extent I have kept up.
noble savage
Member
This is a good list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils
Of course, this evidence hinges on whether or not you believe science is some giant conspiracy theory!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils
Of course, this evidence hinges on whether or not you believe science is some giant conspiracy theory!
CantoX
Member
Evolution most certainly explains why we are here. Humans diverged from older species of primate because a genetic mutation in the structure of their jaw (Shrinking the muscle thus shrinking the crest that is still found on all species of great apes. Which also evolved from older species of monkey.)
There is more uncertainty in what physics really is than there is in evolution. Why don't people complain about our lack of understanding of that? What is so wrong with evolution? People who don't accept evolution and view it as "Just a theory" have never read exactly how beautiful an explanation it really is. Paleontology, archeology, sociology etc etc all converge on the fact that evolution DID happen. Whether people choose to believe it or not. This isn't directed at you canto, it's just an observation.
I believe that there is evolution to such an extent.. such as how German's are usually taller than Americans, and how Arabs have brown skin to protect them from the sun better because they live in a hotter climate.. but to say that evolution can explain that Apes evolved into a form of humans and that those humans became highly intelligent, but there are no other animals that have done this, sounds completely absurd to me.
progmetaldan
Member
Just a couple of things I'd like to mention and clear up.
Ultimately all of this argument comes back to whether you believe in God or not. If you do, it explains pretty much everything, creation, morals etc. and to these people it seems obvious. To someone who doesn't believe in God, obviously they will credit everything from the creation of life to morals to whatever, on something else, this is logical. So no matter how much we argue, it all comes back to that belief of whether God , and no matter how many arguments about creation, the origins of morals etc are presented, its just gonna keep going around in a circle, and come back to 'I believe in God', or 'I don't'.
Just want to clear something up also: Someone stated that one of the commandments was 'Do not kill', and then someone else made the example of Moses and the Israelites way back wiping out nations etc. The commandment is in fact 'Do not murder' which in the context of the day (approx 5000BC) was a big difference. It's like bringing every single soldier back from Iraq who's killed someone in war (for example) and labelling them a murderer, but any reasonable person isn't going to do that are they?
Now I'm going to give you the biblical point of view here, and i"m not arguing with anyone, talking down to anyone, trying to make anyone feel moral, immoral etc. just stating what I as a Christian believe to be the truth, (In an extremely condensed version) you can take it and do what you like with it.
You've gotta ultimately remember that God is a holy, perfect God, in our minds we try to place him in a box, stereotype him, second guess his motives, say whether we think he is right or wrong, etc. but ultimately it doesn't really matter, because he is God and we are not. When he created man, he made them in his image, he also created all the animals etc. and of course there's similarities between us and animals, things that are designed by the same person, constructed by the same person are gonna carry that persons characteristics, and if you discover something which works well, chances are your going to use a similarly based design for other things you make. HOwever when he made us humans, he made us in his image and in a state of perfection, and walked and talked at a personal, friendship level. There wasn't sin (which isn't based on our views, this is God's views, so anything but his level of perfection was sin) however, and when the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was eaten, sin entered the world bringing characteristics such as the ability and the will to do the wrong thing, and death (ie. being human, not living forever) and a distanced relationship was the resulting punishment. Because man knew right from wrong though, God gave the opportunity to regain that position through completely keeping to the Ten Commandments and making sacrifices for just about every misdemeanor, and was ruthless with those who turned against him. This was the first covenant with man, and would've been pretty tough, as I don't know about you, but as much as you try to live right, its impossible to live like that. And God didn't like that, its like a loving Father with an ultra naughty kid, and even though they don't want to, they need to punish the kid. We're naturally rebellious people, and even though we know what is wrong or right, we often choose to do the wrong thing, whether we feel good about it or not, and for this we deserve the punishment...
According to God's law (Ten Commandments) we're all sinners which means we're not worthy to enter his presence which basically means eternal separation when we die. There's no gauge of goodness or badness or anything, if you break one of those laws, even once, thats it. Have you even lied? Stolen, even something small? It says in the bible that if you look at someone with lust, you've committed adultery in your heart by God's standard, and if you hate someone thats as good as murder. Based on that, I know I definately wouldn't be going to Heaven, would you? Whether you believe it or not, if God was real and you were being judged by that standard, would you get into Heaven? I wouldn't, and the alternative isn't very pleasant...
But that's not the end thankfully, as its not God's will that we all end up like this, so he made a way to get back to him... You've probably all heard it a million times, he sent his son Jesus to be the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. It's by putting your trust in him, and turning from your sin that all this law becomes irrelevant! You naturally want to try to live by it, but you no longer have to try to be perfect, but when you realise the magnitude of this sacrifice, it makes you realise just how much God does love us! It'd be like your in court and the judge has just handed down a verdict which there's no way you can pay for, and then somebody comes in and offers to pay it for you. Obviously you're gonna be pretty thankful! This is the second covenant, which is the best thing ever, because without it there's no way we'd ever be good enough.
Sorry if this is coming across as preaching, its just that I care about you guys, you're liek my best friends on teh intarwebz If you don't believe it, that's fine with me, its your choice, but I thought I'd share it, because this is what Christianity is actually about. The unfortunately thing is that many do try to live a 'good' life and in the end just become legalistic and do brainwash others into this way of thinking, but no-one is perfect, and so they just come across as hypocrites which is absolute crap, it shouldn't be like that at all! You see Ken and I, and we're still fun-loving, metal-nerds, there's no reason Christianity should be a burden it is rather a freedom...
P.S. Sorry for the uber-long post...
Ultimately all of this argument comes back to whether you believe in God or not. If you do, it explains pretty much everything, creation, morals etc. and to these people it seems obvious. To someone who doesn't believe in God, obviously they will credit everything from the creation of life to morals to whatever, on something else, this is logical. So no matter how much we argue, it all comes back to that belief of whether God , and no matter how many arguments about creation, the origins of morals etc are presented, its just gonna keep going around in a circle, and come back to 'I believe in God', or 'I don't'.
Just want to clear something up also: Someone stated that one of the commandments was 'Do not kill', and then someone else made the example of Moses and the Israelites way back wiping out nations etc. The commandment is in fact 'Do not murder' which in the context of the day (approx 5000BC) was a big difference. It's like bringing every single soldier back from Iraq who's killed someone in war (for example) and labelling them a murderer, but any reasonable person isn't going to do that are they?
Now I'm going to give you the biblical point of view here, and i"m not arguing with anyone, talking down to anyone, trying to make anyone feel moral, immoral etc. just stating what I as a Christian believe to be the truth, (In an extremely condensed version) you can take it and do what you like with it.
You've gotta ultimately remember that God is a holy, perfect God, in our minds we try to place him in a box, stereotype him, second guess his motives, say whether we think he is right or wrong, etc. but ultimately it doesn't really matter, because he is God and we are not. When he created man, he made them in his image, he also created all the animals etc. and of course there's similarities between us and animals, things that are designed by the same person, constructed by the same person are gonna carry that persons characteristics, and if you discover something which works well, chances are your going to use a similarly based design for other things you make. HOwever when he made us humans, he made us in his image and in a state of perfection, and walked and talked at a personal, friendship level. There wasn't sin (which isn't based on our views, this is God's views, so anything but his level of perfection was sin) however, and when the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was eaten, sin entered the world bringing characteristics such as the ability and the will to do the wrong thing, and death (ie. being human, not living forever) and a distanced relationship was the resulting punishment. Because man knew right from wrong though, God gave the opportunity to regain that position through completely keeping to the Ten Commandments and making sacrifices for just about every misdemeanor, and was ruthless with those who turned against him. This was the first covenant with man, and would've been pretty tough, as I don't know about you, but as much as you try to live right, its impossible to live like that. And God didn't like that, its like a loving Father with an ultra naughty kid, and even though they don't want to, they need to punish the kid. We're naturally rebellious people, and even though we know what is wrong or right, we often choose to do the wrong thing, whether we feel good about it or not, and for this we deserve the punishment...
According to God's law (Ten Commandments) we're all sinners which means we're not worthy to enter his presence which basically means eternal separation when we die. There's no gauge of goodness or badness or anything, if you break one of those laws, even once, thats it. Have you even lied? Stolen, even something small? It says in the bible that if you look at someone with lust, you've committed adultery in your heart by God's standard, and if you hate someone thats as good as murder. Based on that, I know I definately wouldn't be going to Heaven, would you? Whether you believe it or not, if God was real and you were being judged by that standard, would you get into Heaven? I wouldn't, and the alternative isn't very pleasant...
But that's not the end thankfully, as its not God's will that we all end up like this, so he made a way to get back to him... You've probably all heard it a million times, he sent his son Jesus to be the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. It's by putting your trust in him, and turning from your sin that all this law becomes irrelevant! You naturally want to try to live by it, but you no longer have to try to be perfect, but when you realise the magnitude of this sacrifice, it makes you realise just how much God does love us! It'd be like your in court and the judge has just handed down a verdict which there's no way you can pay for, and then somebody comes in and offers to pay it for you. Obviously you're gonna be pretty thankful! This is the second covenant, which is the best thing ever, because without it there's no way we'd ever be good enough.
Sorry if this is coming across as preaching, its just that I care about you guys, you're liek my best friends on teh intarwebz
If you don't believe it, that's fine with me, its your choice, but I thought I'd share it, because this is what Christianity is actually about. The unfortunately thing is that many do try to live a 'good' life and in the end just become legalistic and do brainwash others into this way of thinking, but no-one is perfect, and so they just come across as hypocrites which is absolute crap, it shouldn't be like that at all! You see Ken and I, and we're still fun-loving, metal-nerds, there's no reason Christianity should be a burden it is rather a freedom... P.S. Sorry for the uber-long post...
SilentRealm
Member
razoredge - ive decided i love you.. you were the first to call everyone to that dude's game.. man i hate those pompous pricks..
@ swabs.. i confess i've never really paid much attention to the bible, but is that seriously legit??? Who would write like that, let alone in a book that billions of people follow.. I think they shoulda got George R R Martin to re-write the bible, he would make it a hell of a lot cooler!
@ swabs.. i confess i've never really paid much attention to the bible, but is that seriously legit??? Who would write like that, let alone in a book that billions of people follow.. I think they shoulda got George R R Martin to re-write the bible, he would make it a hell of a lot cooler!
