SX and Paradise Lost = Satanic ??

[DoomsdayZach]

But (Zach or others) dont you think that in reality the 10 commandments are also ideals that any sane rational person can conclude for themselves at an early age simply by feeling the results of wrong doings or putting ones self in the recieving ends shoes ?

This is EXACTLY my point. And this is exactly why i said matt is full of tryhard. Christian values are not inherently bad or devious because they're christian values. A lot of so-called christian values are things that (as you said) a sane and rational person would live by ANYWAY. So to deny all things associated wtih christianity is just dumb. They have some good points. I don't believe in their god or their ways, but i find it incredibly imatture to twist around beliefs just to point out how different you are. Pointless waste of energy.

 

[razoredge]

I see
but I actually didnt interpret it that way when reading his post, I was prolly off on a different angle of the oversites...

 

[OfSinsAndShred]

You know who would love to jump in this argument?

 

[proulxski]

Originally Posted by razoredge
But (Zach or others) dont you think that in reality the 10 commandments are also ideals that any sane rational person can conclude for themselves at an early age simply by feeling the results of wrong doings or putting ones self in the recieving ends shoes ?

I agree with Zach, being agnostic doesn't mean we're undesicive, what it means is that we do not believe in it, and nore do we step out of our way to disbelieve something. Like I said all religons are false to anothers religion, but its what you believe in that makes it right. As far as the 10 commandments go, yes any sane rational person, but when you get people who are going out of there way to try and proove how athiest, or how satanic they are, these guys are obviously not being rational! I don't see everyone should have the bible. and I'm not saying listen to the 10 commandments word-for-word. What I am saying is that A) the 10 commandments, read betweent he lines, no matter what religion you are they apply to the most of us. B) the bible as a book, has some sweet stories, I loved reading some of it in MRE class...However I don't take anything in it seriously!

As far as I'm concerned someone who is athiest is just going out of there way to say they disbelieve everything. and that is the only way, alot of religions are just as bad as sticking to ONE STYLE of music, or being a french seperatist. Extremists, stubborn, arrogant people who are very closed-minded! And know I'm not making a shout out to anyone on this forum, but they're all very good points!

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Sean's right. It's all about thinking for yourself. Identifying with the 10 commandments is not silly, they mostly make sense. Making the choice to not decide on a higher power or lack thereof is not weakness, it's rational thought in its own right.

Again, neither belief nor disbelief has served me in life, and i have no intentions of "deciding". I've decided what i believe already. I believe that right now my life is what is important, and i'll deal with the different possibilities of "the afterlife" once i get there.

In the meantime, i'd like to point out how different that is from the beliefs of other religions... i might blog about it later for everyone who cares

 

[noble savage]

The most important thing is that YOU have actually thought about your decision. It makes me sad to see children born into families that ostracize them when they stand back and decide for themselves which path to take. If I ever accidentally have children, I will make damn sure they are capable of asking questions and reasoning through situations.

 

[razoredge]

^^ I see, both good points, I myself have gone out of my way to deny supreme powers without need. Because in reality I have more respect and trust for honestly spirtual religious people than those who are not.

 

[Statler Waldorf]

^

"Wicca" is a Pagan thing (I think, im pretty sure it is), far from worshipping the devil for fucks sake.

And for the record I belive that anyone who worships any god has severe mental issues.

Wow I guess that means Sir Isaac Newton, Ludwig Van Beethoven, Martin Luther King Jr., and Mozart all had severe mental issues according to you.

 

[Kenneth R.]

This equation is indeterminate. Your number of unknowns must equal your number of equations. Please try again.

You could have a differential equation to partially solve it.

also, LMAO at Terry Goodkind.

 

[Statler Waldorf]

Judging by your posts in the political thread, you most certainly are not. Objectivists (or any individualist) are 100% capitalist and completely reject any form of socialism. But I'm not about to go there in this thread, thats what the other one was for

The Ten Commandments apply only to Christians. The few 10 commandments I will agree are good, I do not agree with based on the same morality that Christians do.


You shall have no other Gods but me. - this one is obviously not applicable to an atheist.

You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it. - same as #1

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. - ditto.

You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy. - ditto.

Respect your father and mother. - I don't agree with this one. You should only respect some people that deserve it, and lets face it, some parents don't deserve respect.

You must not kill. - Agreed, but not for the same principles. Applying my morality, killing someone is irrational as it does two things: it infringes on someone else's individual freedom to life, and by committing any act against someone else, I am giving them and anyone else the right to do it to me. However, if someone is trying to kill ME, you better believe I'm going to defend myself, and under my morals this is justified, as they're now infringing on my freedoms and granting me the right to kill them.

You must not commit adultery. - This is an odd one for me to comment on. I would never cheat on a partner that I respect and love, but sometimes something better comes along. I wouldn't cheat, I'd probably just dump whoever I was with... I'll just say its not applicable to someone who isn't a Christian.

You must not steal. Agreed, but not for the same principles, and for the same reasons as killing.

You must not give false evidence against your neighbour. - Agreed, dishonesty destroys your integrity.

You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor. - Big fat disagreement here. Envy is a good thing. If no one looked at someone else who had something you didn't and thought "I wish I had that too" no one would strive to better themselves.


So lets count. For a non-christian atheist such as myself, only 3 of the 10 I can fully agree with and apply to my own life.

Actually the ten commandments first appeared in the Tora, so they are not only applicable to Christians but also Jews. Secondly you cannot assume anyone has "rights" or have morals for that matter without a higher power or standard. The mere concept of a right implies there is a higher standard to assign it. I always find it laughable when atheists try to hold moral beliefs, but you can always unravel their moral tapestry by just asking "why"?

 

[noble savage]

Actually the ten commandments first appeared in the Tora, so they are not only applicable to Christians but also Jews. Secondly you cannot assume anyone has "rights" or have morals for that matter without a higher power or standard. The mere concept of a right implies there is a higher standard to assign it. I always find it laughable when atheists try to hold moral beliefs, but you can always unravel their moral tapestry by just asking "why"?

Hahaha

Right, I bet the same god that gives "us" our morals is the same one responsible for just about every war and evil act in history. Sounds like a strong basis for morality to me! Seriously, that statement sounds like it could have been lifted from a stereotypical religious propaganda packet.

Have even met an Atheist before?

 

[Statler Waldorf]

Hahaha

Right, I bet the same god that gives "us" our morals is the same one responsible for just about every war and evil act in history. Sounds like a strong basis for morality to me! Seriously, that statement sounds like it could have been lifted from a stereotypical religious propaganda packet.

Nice try You cannot deem an act "evil" without believing in higher powers, sorry. Secondly, I didn't realize that God assasinated Duke Franz Ferdinand thus sparking WWI. I didn't realize that God carried out the murder of over 6 million jews during WWII. I didn't realize God ran the death camps in early 20th century China. I didn't realize God built and detonated the bomb that blew up the Oklamhoma City building. I didn't realize that God enslaved other races. You certainly opened my eyes my friend, I was living under the dillusion that those were all people doing those evil acts.

 

[noble savage]

Nice try You cannot deem an act "evil" without believing in higher powers, sorry. Secondly, I didn't realize that God assasinated Duke Franz Ferdinand thus sparking WWI. I didn't realize that God carried out the murder of over 6 million jews during WWII. I didn't realize God ran the death camps in early 20th century China. I didn't realize God built and detonated the bomb that blew up the Oklamhoma City building. I didn't realize that God enslaved other races. You certainly opened my eyes my friend, I was living under the dillusion that those were all people doing those evil acts.

And it was people who created the basis for morality! Just like it was people who did all of those acts!

 

[proulxski]

Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf
Actually the ten commandments first appeared in the Tora, so they are not only applicable to Christians but also Jews. Secondly you cannot assume anyone has "rights" or have morals for that matter without a higher power or standard. The mere concept of a right implies there is a higher standard to assign it. I always find it laughable when atheists try to hold moral beliefs, but you can always unravel their moral tapestry by just asking "why"?

dude... no... The mere concept of right was implemented by are ancestors, what we in North America find right or wrong is not what europeans might think is right or wrong! Or perception of right or wrong was not set their by god, but by are elders, anyone older and more experienced than us! Perhaps you did something stupid once, when we become older and have kids (if you have kids) you will be warning your children of such things to avoid them on there own, and than they will experience things of their own to share. Needless to say, right and wrong is not something god placed there but something we ourselves placed there.

 

[Statler Waldorf]

dude... no... The mere concept of right was implemented by are ancestors, what we in North America find right or wrong is not what europeans might think is right or wrong! Or perception of right or wrong was not set their by god, but by are elders, anyone older and more experienced than us! Perhaps you did something stupid once, when we become older and have kids (if you have kids) you will be warning your children of such things to avoid them on there own, and than they will experience things of their own to share. Needless to say, right and wrong is not something god placed there but something we ourselves placed there.

Ok, then tell me why it is actually wrong to kil another person...

 

[proulxski]

easy, because you're stopping a life-cycle, perhaps ruining many peoples lives, and someone who is not all there, and not properly edumecated doesn't realize what the aftermath of murder is. Wanting to kill somebody, and going through with it are at two differ sides of the spectrum, we let hate and anger consume us. Obviously there are some people who should be removed from this planet, but being removed is not murder!

 

[Statler Waldorf]

easy, because you're stopping a life-cycle, perhaps ruining many peoples lives, and someone who is not all there, and not properly edumecated doesn't realize what the aftermath of murder is. Wanting to kill somebody, and going through with it are at two differ sides of the spectrum, we let hate and anger consume us. Obviously there are some people who should be removed from this planet, but being removed is not murder!

Ok, here we go, let the Atheistic Logical Faliacies begin But who says it is wrong to stop a life cycle? Who says it is wrong to ruin other people's lives?

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Actually the ten commandments first appeared in the Tora, so they are not only applicable to Christians but also Jews. Secondly you cannot assume anyone has "rights" or have morals for that matter without a higher power or standard. The mere concept of a right implies there is a higher standard to assign it. I always find it laughable when atheists try to hold moral beliefs, but you can always unravel their moral tapestry by just asking "why"?

Nice try You cannot deem an act "evil" without believing in higher powers, sorry. Secondly, I didn't realize that God assasinated Duke Franz Ferdinand thus sparking WWI. I didn't realize that God carried out the murder of over 6 million jews during WWII. I didn't realize God ran the death camps in early 20th century China. I didn't realize God built and detonated the bomb that blew up the Oklamhoma City building. I didn't realize that God enslaved other races. You certainly opened my eyes my friend, I was living under the dillusion that those were all people doing those evil acts.

No one has deemed anythign "evil" in this thread to my recollection. We're not talking about good and evil, we're tlaking about personal moral values. And it is very easy to be athiest or agnostic and have a set of morals. I am and I do. I'll give an example:
I think it's wrong to deliberately hurt someone. Why? Because most reasonable people see someone whom they have hurt and have feelings of empathy for them, especially if they've been hurt in a similar manner before (either physically or psychologically) and they understand taht it's not a good feeling, relate, and thus feel bad for causing that.
Not only that, but you are absolutely flawed in implying that a "higher power" has to be a diety of some kind. A "higher power" could be fearing the consequences of mom or dad, or the cops, hell, pretty much anything that is above you in society. That's a damn good reason to not kill someone.

Basically, you're coming off as a prick who has no idea of anything past your own narrow scope of "reality". I'm not going to change your mind because it's very apparent that you think you're right, you're not open to the discussion and are simply going to accuse someone like myself of being in denial no matter what i say. So get off your high horse.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Ok, here we go, let the Atheistic Logical Faliacies begin But who says it is wrong to stop a life cycle? Who says it is wrong to ruin other people's lives?

*rolls eyes* Let me guess. It's because a gigantic dude who sits on a cloud wearing a white bathrobe said it is so. What do I win?

 

[Statler Waldorf]

*rolls eyes* Let me guess. It's because a gigantic dude who sits on a cloud wearing a white bathrobe said it is so. What do I win?

Actually nowhere in the Bible does it describe God as a dude sitting on a cloude in a robe, but nice attempt at simplifying the arguement. So the only reason you don't kill someone is because of what other people might do to you as punishment (cops, parents)? That's kind of scary. What if a person doesn't feel bad when they kill people is it then magically no longer wrong? Ted Bundy actually described killing as a pleasurable act, was it right then for him to do it?